Does the current working class have it harder than the baby boomers and generation x

Jul 2016
8,180
USA
#31
Here is the published cost for 2019 at Lehigh:
Seriously, are you complaining about a private university's costs?

What next, going to complain about how unfairly expensive a vacation to Hawaii is? LOL

Cost or availability isn't the problem. Sense of entitlement, THAT is the problem. Nobody owes anyone anything. You earn it, or it's valueless.
 

Edratman

Ad Honorem
Feb 2009
6,179
Eastern PA
#32
Seriously, are you complaining about a private university's costs?

What next, going to complain about how unfairly expensive a vacation to Hawaii is? LOL

Cost or availability isn't the problem. Sense of entitlement, THAT is the problem. Nobody owes anyone anything. You earn it, or it's valueless.
Obviously you have not bothered to read the whole thread,
 
Aug 2010
15,244
Welsh Marches
#34
The idea that college should be cheap and available to everyone is ridiculously naive. You can't have both. If it's cheap then quality drops massively, because professors and administrators don't work for charity. If its plentiful, then to cover size it needs to charge more.

A lie was created in American culture in the 80-90s, perpetuated largely by high school teachers and especially guidance counselors, that trade jobs were for losers and failures, that a college degree was necessary for success in life. Such crap, and two entire generations were taken in by this.

Leaving individuals who were either not cut out for higher education thinking they're owed it, or cannot afford what has always been considered something of great value, and worse, thinking the world owes them great paying jobs doing their dream profession, with no conflict or difficulty, because they got a diploma. Nuts!

Meanwhile the country is desperate for individuals in the trades, who generally make more money, by far, than most white collar jobs. The various trades are being done by older and older people who have no one to replace them. That's going to be fun when everyone who keeps society running decides to retire...

I'm sure socialism will save us though...
There's a lot of truth in that; and far too may university courses in subjects with no academic content or rigour are a total waste of time, they don't educate people and often even corrupt them through a form of indoctrination that teaches nothing but the manipulation of jargon.
 
Jul 2016
8,180
USA
#35
There's a lot of truth in that; and far too may university courses in subjects with no academic content or rigour are a total waste of time, they don't educate people and often even corrupt them through a form of indoctrination that teaches nothing but the manipulation of jargon.
I have a liberal arts degree. History. Utterly useless, I'll lucky i have a job at all and owe way more to networking than a degree.

All high school students need a brutally honest truth session where someone explains to them if they plan on racking up massive debt to party and a diploma to put on a resume, at least get something valuable. Better yet, become a welder or plumber or electrician, make real money, don't be forced to wear ties or pant suits and work in an uptight office full of unhappy passive aggressive people who all wish they made better decisions in their youth.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,781
#36
The idea that college should be cheap and available to everyone is ridiculously naive. You can't have both. If it's cheap then quality drops massively, because professors and administrators don't work for charity. If its plentiful, then to cover size it needs to charge more.

A lie was created in American culture in the 80-90s, perpetuated largely by high school teachers and especially guidance counselors, that trade jobs were for losers and failures, that a college degree was necessary for success in life. Such crap, and two entire generations were taken in by this.

Leaving individuals who were either not cut out for higher education thinking they're owed it, or cannot afford what has always been considered something of great value, and worse, thinking the world owes them great paying jobs doing their dream profession, with no conflict or difficulty, because they got a diploma. Nuts!

Meanwhile the country is desperate for individuals in the trades, who generally make more money, by far, than most white collar jobs. The various trades are being done by older and older people who have no one to replace them. That's going to be fun when everyone who keeps society running decides to retire...

I'm sure socialism will save us though...
There are certain things that need to be run by the state, for the public good...

Exhibit A is firemen in ancient Rome, when they were private businesses... They would show up as a house was burning and start negotiating price... Time being on their side, their price went up as time passed and the house owner became more desperate... Sometimes competing "fire brigades" would fight each other first before proceeding to haggle with the hapless owner. So fire fighting, policing, soldiering, and at least primary education among others are better majoritarily (meaning some private help can be welcome but it must be minor) left to the state/community

Its majoritarily agreed that compulsory and "free" (meaning subsidized by the state) education until about 16 is a good thing for the community and country.... When John or Jane Doe know how to read, write, count etc... they benefit but those around them benefit also (although such benefits are difficult to quantify exactly)

Regarding higher education different countries have gone different ways.. In some its free, in others its quite expensive in others yet it is somewhere in between. When higher education is expensive the risk is that the "elites" will perpetuate themselves since only they will be afford the higher and best education for their children who of course will get the best jobs because those will require said higher education. And while some plumbers or septic tank cleaners may make a decent living , their income sheet is not match for that of C-level executives the overwhelming majority of whom boast higher level diplomas (some going as far as faking them, cause, well without such a diploma they just wont be taken seriously unless already mega rich)

An additional issue pointed out here is that higher education in the US has increased at least twice faster than inflation since the 70s... there is no clear reason why it should be so (since the main cost is salaries and its unlikely that faculty staff salaries have progressed twice faster than inflation).. Moreover with more and more students (clients) thus higher volumes, its not clear why education has not become more efficient (especially when you factor in new technology, for example with a simple Skype a professor is able to reach simultaneously to many more students... with automated testing , the cost of testing should have gone down significantly. etc...).. So it looks like competition is not working as it should in this field...

Now do some people engage in never ending and basically useless studies at high cost ? Certainly ... Are there many ? stats are lacking but its probably a minority.... Should the education system be judged based on these outliers ?... Again, probably not...
 
Jul 2016
8,180
USA
#37
There are certain things that need to be run by the state, for the public good...

Exhibit A is firemen in ancient Rome, when they were private businesses... They would show up as a house was burning and start negotiating price... Time being on their side, their price went up as time passed and the house owner became more desperate... Sometimes competing "fire brigades" would fight each other first before proceeding to haggle with the hapless owner. So fire fighting, policing, soldiering, and at least primary education among others are better majoritarily (meaning some private help can be welcome but it must be minor) left to the state/community

Its majoritarily agreed that compulsory and "free" (meaning subsidized by the state) education until about 16 is a good thing for the community and country.... When John or Jane Doe know how to read, write, count etc... they benefit but those around them benefit also (although such benefits are difficult to quantify exactly)

Regarding higher education different countries have gone different ways.. In some its free, in others its quite expensive in others yet it is somewhere in between. When higher education is expensive the risk is that the "elites" will perpetuate themselves since only they will be afford the higher and best education for their children who of course will get the best jobs because those will require said higher education. And while some plumbers or septic tank cleaners may make a decent living , their income sheet is not match for that of C-level executives the overwhelming majority of whom boast higher level diplomas (some going as far as faking them, cause, well without such a diploma they just wont be taken seriously unless already mega rich)

An additional issue pointed out here is that higher education in the US has increased at least twice faster than inflation since the 70s... there is no clear reason why it should be so (since the main cost is salaries and its unlikely that faculty staff salaries have progressed twice faster than inflation).. Moreover with more and more students (clients) thus higher volumes, its not clear why education has not become more efficient (especially when you factor in new technology, for example with a simple Skype a professor is able to reach simultaneously to many more students... with automated testing , the cost of testing should have gone down significantly. etc...).. So it looks like competition is not working as it should in this field...

Now do some people engage in never ending and basically useless studies at high cost ? Certainly ... Are there many ? stats are lacking but its probably a minority.... Should the education system be judged based on these outliers ?... Again, probably not...
If one is paying for it, its not free. Where is the State's subsidizing coming from? Tax payers. Not free.

C-levels executives make up a tiny proportion of the population. You're taking a small number of the top individuals at large companies and attempting to use them as the example of what is achievable. False, their positions are about as easily achievable as becoming a professional athlete (which doesn't have the affirmative action you are wanting). The best of the best, in theory, with all the proper check the blocks and that is why they get the jobs. Good undergrad degrees, that Harvard Business School or other top level MBA program. Ample experience in numerous Fortune 500 companies over the course of decades where one makes a name for themselves as a top performer, somebody who gets things done and most importantly, make money. Ambition to destroy anyone who stands in their way of rising up through the ranks. To remotely believe its attainable by every tom, dick, and harry who go to college and do little besides getting herpes, massive student load debt, and a useless four year liberal arts degree in basket weaving is naive to say the least, as is the idea that it will lead to success in life just because they got a degree.

Meanwhile, a starting welder can easily make $100k/year. A plumber starts out doing grunt work at $15-20/hr, within a year they're making far more, and within a few years, once they are journeymen and gaining some experience and actually knowing what they're doing, they are often getting paid higher salaries than most mid level management in the corporate world.

You know that one can lie on a resume about college and easily not even get caught, because HR or whomever is doing hiring almost never verifies it? My best friend is in a director level position in a company, zero college, and puts a degree from a prestigious school on his resume, LinkedIn profile, etc. Nobody questions it. Want to know how he got the job? Skill, and most of all, the most important thing to get jobs: networking. If everyone wants to go to college, they can't. The resources don't exist, even with online courses (which are usually horrible way for many to learn). For more resources to be made available, means more money. More taxpayers will have to fund it, or tuition goes up. The more money that students borrow, the more money the colleges can charge. And why shouldn't they? The students are willing to pay it, the basis of supply and demand are met.

If one tries to make college available it not only massively increases costs, it devalues the degree itself, because now every idiot who paid their money gets the diploma. And if one wants to make it "free" to the students (not their parents, who being taxpayers still end up paying for it), then the only way to make it work is like how many of the Euros do it, its free but only to the highest primary school performers, those who ace every major standardized test and get the best grades, the very best of the best. They get full rides, the rest either pay their way or don't go. Which is basically how it works in the US anyway. The kids that belong in college don't usually have issues paying for it. If they're smart and well to do, they get scholarships. If they're poor and smart, they get grants and scholarships. Stopping off in a financial aid office, they hand out entire folders of nothing but various scholarships that students can freely apply for. There are various grants that one gets just for coming from a poor family.

Those who can't afford college and are utterly reliant on loans are simply those who can't land themselves grants, scholarships, or have the brains to use simple employment options for companies that offer to pay their employees way through school. Meaning kids from well-to-do households of parents who have sufficient income that their kids don't qualify for loans, while the kids refuse to become emancipated. Kids that should NOT BE GOING TO COLLEGE IN THE FIRST PLACE. They're too damn lazy to even try to figure out a trick to pay for their schooling. They take student loans for things like Spring Break in Cancun, Mexico. They rack up student loan debt because they're idiots who think "I don't need to start paying these back until after I graduate, and by then I'll be a C-level Executive with my History Degree!" Meanwhile, they don't even bother trying to internships. They don't have a clue how companies even hire, what they're looking for. They're unwilling to do grunt work jobs to get a foot in the door or to just earn some money, because anything less than $50k/year with great medical/dental is a God given right supposedly. So they bitch, complain, and vote for Bernie Sanders hoping their ridiculous debts will get wiped out.

College for the purpose of simply improving oneself's knowledge about life is for the rich, who have the free time to avoid having to focus on employment and can just focus on wasting time and be idle. For everyone else, the only thing that matters, the entire point, is for advanced education to actually lead to a benefit in later life. Are you guaranteeing a good job afterwards, more importantly a real career? If the answer is "I don't know" or just "No", then its a mistake to pursue it, and a near criminal endeavor to promote it. And they're wasting their parent's money, their own money in loans they will have to pay back, and tax payer money in the form of grants and other things they pay for. Basically the entire liberal arts field is part of this. The worlds largest job providers in the private sector aren't wanting history majors, or English Lit majors, or whatever. They want computer scientists, engineers, etc. Hard science degrees in very hard to learn fields, that pay very well upon graduation because they are in massively high demand.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,781
#38
If one is paying for it, its not free. Where is the State's subsidizing coming from? Tax payers. Not free.

.
Nothing is free....

The point is certain services are made available by the state (funded of course by tax money, what else?) because otherwise a large number of people would not have access to them making things worse for the whole community as a result..... Again the firefighting example....

1666’s Great Fire of London was one of the worst urban conflagrations in recorded history.

Spreading from a baker’s shop in Pudding Lane, it raged for five days through the cramped streets. It’s believed to have reached a staggering temperature of 1,250C and consumed 13,200 houses, 87 parish churches, St Paul’s Cathedral, and most of the buildings of the City. The cost of rebuilding London was estimated to have run into billions at today’s value.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,781
#39
If one is paying for it, its not free. Where is the State's subsidizing coming from? Tax payers. Not free.

C-levels executives make up a tiny proportion of the population. You're taking a small number of the top individuals at large companies and attempting to use them as the example of what is achievable. False, their positions are about as easily achievable as becoming a professional athlete (which doesn't have the affirmative action you are wanting). The best of the best, in theory, with all the proper check the blocks and that is why they get the jobs. Good undergrad degrees, that Harvard Business School or other top level MBA program. Ample experience in numerous Fortune 500 companies over the course of decades where one makes a name for themselves as a top performer, somebody who gets things done and most importantly, make money. Ambition to destroy anyone who stands in their way of rising up through the ranks. To remotely believe its attainable by every tom, dick, and harry who go to college and do little besides getting herpes, massive student load debt, and a useless four year liberal arts degree in basket weaving is naive to say the least, as is the idea that it will lead to success in life just because they got a degree.

Meanwhile, a starting welder can easily make $100k/year. A plumber starts out doing grunt work at $15-20/hr, within a year they're making far more, and within a few years, once they are journeymen and gaining some experience and actually knowing what they're doing, they are often getting paid higher salaries than most mid level management in the corporate world.

.
Actually plumbers are not that numerous, with circa 400 000 of them in the US (i.e roughly 1 per 1 000 of population) ..... There are however some 2.5 mio top executives in the US (so 6 times more than plumbers and almost 1 per 100 of population).... According to the US bureau of labor stats their median pay is about $50 per hour while that of plumbers is $25... The welders are about as numerous as plumbers and their median pay is about $20 per hour...

The above of course does not take into consideration risks and hazards (its vastly more dangerous to be a welder than a top exec).... Neither does it take into account all kinds of perks of which top execs will have vastly more

The above explains why so many people are rushing to college... the prospect of being a top exec is vastly more attractive than that of being a welder
 
Jul 2016
8,180
USA
#40
Actually plumbers are not that numerous, with circa 400 000 of them in the US (i.e roughly 1 per 1 000 of population) ..... There are however some 2.5 mio top executives in the US (so 6 times more than plumbers and almost 1 per 100 of population).... According to the US bureau of labor stats their median pay is about $50 per hour while that of plumbers is $25... The welders are about as numerous as plumbers and their median pay is about $20 per hour...

The above of course does not take into consideration risks and hazards (its vastly more dangerous to be a welder than a top exec).... Neither does it take into account all kinds of perks of which top execs will have vastly more

The above explains why so many people are rushing to college... the prospect of being a top exec is vastly more attractive than that of being a welder
Part bold, underlined, italics. That's the problem. Kids are steered wrong, set up for failure, as is society as a whole, which has a dirth of much needed trade positions, that are in high demand, good pay, which society is absolutely required to have to function, versus a bunch of dumb ass kids who think they can rise to the highest levels of business, as if they can become a general if they join the military, or a pro-bowl NFL quarterback if they decide to play sports. Its utterly ridiculous.

Spoiled, rotten, incompetent, and, to top it off, the most glaring sense of entitlement ever. "I can't be a CEO, my life is ruined! Give me free stuff!"

Also, the numbers you provide for trades is dominated by the inclusion of apprentices. Master plumbers are making way way way more than what you stated. And welders, LOL, the US is in such hard press for any they're throwing money at kids to take up the trade. I know at least five guys who had basic welding skills and walked into jobs where they ended up making well over $100k/year as their first real job.

Since there are no apprentice CEOs (they're called interns), the number is warped. Its like stating what the top performer on an NFL team makes, and then stating all high school football players can attain that. Its utterly ridiculous. The fact that people believe it is proof that their parents, their education, and society as a whole utterly failed them in preparing them for the realities of life as an adult.