Does the current working class have it harder than the baby boomers and generation x

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,136
#41
Part bold, underlined, italics. That's the problem. Kids are steered wrong, set up for failure, as is society as a whole, which has a dirth of much needed trade positions, that are in high demand, good pay, which society is absolutely required to have to function, versus a bunch of dumb ass kids who think they can rise to the highest levels of business, as if they can become a general if they join the military, or a pro-bowl NFL quarterback if they decide to play sports. Its utterly ridiculous.

Spoiled, rotten, incompetent, and, to top it off, the most glaring sense of entitlement ever. "I can't be a CEO, my life is ruined! Give me free stuff!"

Also, the numbers you provide for trades is dominated by the inclusion of apprentices. Master plumbers are making way way way more than what you stated. And welders, LOL, the US is in such hard press for any they're throwing money at kids to take up the trade. I know at least five guys who had basic welding skills and walked into jobs where they ended up making well over $100k/year as their first real job.

Since there are no apprentice CEOs (they're called interns), the number is warped. Its like stating what the top performer on an NFL team makes, and then stating all high school football players can attain that. Its utterly ridiculous. The fact that people believe it is proof that their parents, their education, and society as a whole utterly failed them in preparing them for the realities of life as an adult.
One more aspect you need to take into account : durability of job

A friend told me a story about there being a shortage of chemistry majors in the 60s... then people rushed into that field to find that in the 70s they were no longer needed... Some jobs might be temporarily in high demand and then in just a few years no longer needed or needed much less... I dont know much about welding but for the sake of discussion if a welding robot costing -say- 50K$ + 5K$ yearly maintenance is put on the market , there wont be many 100k$ welding jobs -or even 50K$ jobs- left.... In general the more complicated the job and the more "people interaction intensive" the less the chance that the worker will be replaced by a machine

What is the Cost of a Robotic Welding Cell?

This piece (from 2014) puts the 2014 robot costs at about $10 per hour ... they are probably less now..... so how much time is left for welders to enjoy good salaries ?
 
Jan 2019
130
USA
#42
Part bold, underlined, italics. That's the problem. Kids are steered wrong, set up for failure, as is society as a whole, which has a dirth of much needed trade positions, that are in high demand, good pay, which society is absolutely required to have to function, versus a bunch of dumb ass kids who think they can rise to the highest levels of business, as if they can become a general if they join the military, or a pro-bowl NFL quarterback if they decide to play sports. Its utterly ridiculous.

Spoiled, rotten, incompetent, and, to top it off, the most glaring sense of entitlement ever. "I can't be a CEO, my life is ruined! Give me free stuff!"

Also, the numbers you provide for trades is dominated by the inclusion of apprentices. Master plumbers are making way way way more than what you stated. And welders, LOL, the US is in such hard press for any they're throwing money at kids to take up the trade. I know at least five guys who had basic welding skills and walked into jobs where they ended up making well over $100k/year as their first real job.

Since there are no apprentice CEOs (they're called interns), the number is warped. Its like stating what the top performer on an NFL team makes, and then stating all high school football players can attain that. Its utterly ridiculous. The fact that people believe it is proof that their parents, their education, and society as a whole utterly failed them in preparing them for the realities of life as an adult.
I don't have much experience in the salaries of tradesman. I did a search and found that the scale goes up to about $60,000 a year. Is that accurate? You figure out of college a person can make more than that.
 
Jul 2016
8,713
USA
#43
I don't have much experience in the salaries of tradesman. I did a search and found that the scale goes up to about $60,000 a year. Is that accurate? You figure out of college a person can make more than that.
The scale goes much higher than $60k/yr. A college person is not making more than that unless they have a skill in demand. What skill are they learning in college, especially with a non-STEM degree? A college degree does not get anyone a job anymore. Sure, there as a short time period where having seemingly any bachelor's degree, even a Phys Ed degree, got someone a job interview, and if they didn't bomb it, a job. But that was during a "Times of Plenty" period that was temporary, and its over.

A degree is what it is. Its a check-the-block on a resume/application that hiring personnel look for in initial screening. Most of the time they don't even look at it themselves, they have software that looks for key words on resumes/applications, and if they're missing they auto delete it. So if the job requirement demands a degree, or certain work experience, and someone doesn't include it on the resume/application (notice I didn't write legitimately possess one), then the hiring process ends. That's it, that is really all a bachelor's degree does anymore, it checks off one of many many blocks on a job application. It doesn't get someone hired, it just might get their resume looked at to then find acceptable candidates for interviews and later hiring.

Here is how trades work. Graduate with certification from a trade school, or get On-The-Job training as an apprentice, and that gets a person hired by a desperate boss, somewhere, who absolutely NEEDS new employees. Nationwide there is a massive demand for trade positions, as there was an artificial shortage created by parents/teachers/guidance counselors. Business owners are actually being forced to turn down more work because they can't find new employees to grow their companies. They can't find new employees because all the 18-22 year olds are duped by ignorant and delusional authority figures that they need to get a 4 year degree, even in a non-STEM field, to guarantee meaningful employment and a good salary. False. Untrue. Lies. The truth is the opposite.

Want a good job and want to go to college? Get a STEM degree. That usually lands someone a job upon graduation, usually a student actually gets headhunted about the time they're graduating by corporate recruiters. Otherwise they find work through internships, which are the real key to getting work after college as they are about networking and resume building, not just a check the block on a resume. Otherwise, one is wasting time and lots of money getting something that isn't actually going to help them. "You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library." - From a movie, but few more correct words were ever uttered

My advice to all kids who truly can't handle the difficulty of getting a STEM degree is to learn a trade. Its hard work, but if they show up, aren't terrible workers, and can pass a urinalysis, they're basically guaranteed good employment for the rest of their lives. What they wont have to do is work at Walmart or at Starbucks complaining about being underemployed and full of student loan debt, but able to discuss the intricacies of a subject nobody actually gives a crap about because you can't really make money on it.
 
Jul 2016
8,713
USA
#44
One more aspect you need to take into account : durability of job

A friend told me a story about there being a shortage of chemistry majors in the 60s... then people rushed into that field to find that in the 70s they were no longer needed... Some jobs might be temporarily in high demand and then in just a few years no longer needed or needed much less... I dont know much about welding but for the sake of discussion if a welding robot costing -say- 50K$ + 5K$ yearly maintenance is put on the market , there wont be many 100k$ welding jobs -or even 50K$ jobs- left.... In general the more complicated the job and the more "people interaction intensive" the less the chance that the worker will be replaced by a machine

What is the Cost of a Robotic Welding Cell?

This piece (from 2014) puts the 2014 robot costs at about $10 per hour ... they are probably less now..... so how much time is left for welders to enjoy good salaries ?
Do you have any idea what a welder does? I'm not talking about someone in an assembly line at an automotive plant. I'm talking about someone who has to drive somewhere to a job site and then weld something. Somebody working on an oil derrick. Someone who is helping to build buildings, ships, etc. That isn't ever going to be automated, it can't be. Most trade jobs are like that. Find me a robot that builds a house, fixes your toilets and showers, fixes your electricity, fixes your broken computers and other things that you and everyone else have no idea how any of the very technical stuff they rely on works.

At this point, what could have been automated has, and what can't, until full size robotic/enslaved droids are capable of doing it, people are. And since there is a huge demand, a limited supply, then they will get paid well. And since there is a glut of low skill college grads all fighting for the same entry level positions, most wont get hired and those that will get paid garbage because their skills aren't in demand, and there is not a limited supply of them.

Ar you seriously downplaying the durability of blue color jobs? Educate thyself

Not only do you not know anything about the trades, apparently not even knowing anyone who could clue you in, but you aren't even aware of the superbly dangerous near future in white collar employment.

Do you know what AI is going to do to the white collar job market once cheap and available AI software is online? I am white collar, my job requires rather intense analytical skills, fact checking, research skills, high level grasp of grammar and writing as a whole. And my job is gone, no longer existence, once my company buys that software (which is about 1-2 years, max, from being on the market, and is the reason companies like Google are racing to build it, because corporations are salivating on how much money they will save after buying it and then doing massive layoffs). I'm talking about the majority of white collar jobs, as soon as that stuff is online, its all gone. And all those people, with zero skill sets that are useful, will either have to develop new skills, find crappy jobs not requiring any skills (barristas at Starbucks!), or will just leave the job market altogether and be part of that massive percentage of Americans who are work age but aren't included in unemployment stats anymore because they simply stopped trying to work, and just conned their way on early Social Security.

You ever go to a bank anymore, see how many people work there, especially in the loans department? Ever wonder why? Because finance automated everything. Accountants, almost their entire job is automated. Law, most of the grunt work that most legal specialists did is gone because it takes one person 10 minutes to chase down important case law on the internet that used to take ten clerks three weeks to gather. Ever been to a doctor's office? What is that electronic device they have open in their hands the entire time, where they are clicking on a list of symptoms to get a diagnosis, treatment plan, recommended list of Rx meds, etc? The stock exchange, a large part of daily selling is done by machines who track volatility of stocks on a minute to minute basis and conduct automatic buys and sells, which trigger one another constantly (causing a seesaw market).

I swear this forum blows my mind. People who comment nonstop on economics and employment issues, but who apparently never met or talked to someone in the trades. I don't even know why I bother...
 
Jan 2019
130
USA
#45
The scale goes much higher than $60k/yr. A college person is not making more than that unless they have a skill in demand. What skill are they learning in college, especially with a non-STEM degree? A college degree does not get anyone a job anymore. Sure, there as a short time period where having seemingly any bachelor's degree, even a Phys Ed degree, got someone a job interview, and if they didn't bomb it, a job. But that was during a "Times of Plenty" period that was temporary, and its over.

A degree is what it is. Its a check-the-block on a resume/application that hiring personnel look for in initial screening. Most of the time they don't even look at it themselves, they have software that looks for key words on resumes/applications, and if they're missing they auto delete it. So if the job requirement demands a degree, or certain work experience, and someone doesn't include it on the resume/application (notice I didn't write legitimately possess one), then the hiring process ends. That's it, that is really all a bachelor's degree does anymore, it checks off one of many many blocks on a job application. It doesn't get someone hired, it just might get their resume looked at to then find acceptable candidates for interviews and later hiring.

Here is how trades work. Graduate with certification from a trade school, or get On-The-Job training as an apprentice, and that gets a person hired by a desperate boss, somewhere, who absolutely NEEDS new employees. Nationwide there is a massive demand for trade positions, as there was an artificial shortage created by parents/teachers/guidance counselors. Business owners are actually being forced to turn down more work because they can't find new employees to grow their companies. They can't find new employees because all the 18-22 year olds are duped by ignorant and delusional authority figures that they need to get a 4 year degree, even in a non-STEM field, to guarantee meaningful employment and a good salary. False. Untrue. Lies. The truth is the opposite.

Want a good job and want to go to college? Get a STEM degree. That usually lands someone a job upon graduation, usually a student actually gets headhunted about the time they're graduating by corporate recruiters. Otherwise they find work through internships, which are the real key to getting work after college as they are about networking and resume building, not just a check the block on a resume. Otherwise, one is wasting time and lots of money getting something that isn't actually going to help them. "You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library." - From a movie, but few more correct words were ever uttered

My advice to all kids who truly can't handle the difficulty of getting a STEM degree is to learn a trade. Its hard work, but if they show up, aren't terrible workers, and can pass a urinalysis, they're basically guaranteed good employment for the rest of their lives. What they wont have to do is work at Walmart or at Starbucks complaining about being underemployed and full of student loan debt, but able to discuss the intricacies of a subject nobody actually gives a crap about because you can't really make money on it.
Out of college just about everyone I know was making around 60-70k a year. That was for a job that is comparable to an engineer tech. After that, I can't say how much others went up. However, I can say that a 25% increase on top of that is probable. Granted, that is for a STEM degree. The people who are making the big bucks right now are the guys with business degrees working in high powered sales environments. I know lots of folks younger than me that are making north of 150K a year off a business degree selling medical devices. As a whole? STEM degrees net the highest earns on average and are most employable. That doesn't mean that business degrees aren't more bankable than a trade degree.

I'm not sure if I'm completely on board with the trade degree over academic degree in regards to a long term investment.

**EDIT** Now, if people choose an arts degree that would require a PHD to do anything of value with, that's their own fault..
 
Jul 2016
8,713
USA
#46
Out of college just about everyone I know was making around 60-70k a year. That was for a job that is comparable to an engineer tech. After that, I can't say how much others went up. However, I can say that a 25% increase on top of that is probable. Granted, that is for a STEM degree. The people who are making the big bucks right now are the guys with business degrees working in high powered sales environments. I know lots of folks younger than me that are making north of 150K a year off a business degree selling medical devices. As a whole? STEM degrees net the highest earns on average and are most employable. That doesn't mean that business degrees aren't more bankable than a trade degree.

I'm not sure if I'm completely on board with the trade degree over academic degree in regards to a long term investment.
STEM degree are hard to get, useful, and thus valuable. There is a large demand for them, a limited supply of new STEM graduates, so they get paid well.

Business degree don't teach sales. Being a good salesman and being able to make a ton of money is an individual skill that can't be taught in academia by a professor whose only business skills are those he/she read from a book, including they wrote themselves. Those who can't do, teach. One can be a great salesman without any formal education.

Regular business degrees are about the biggest waste of money. In a world where high school grad was the norm for every day workers, having a BS in business meant someone had management potential. Now an undergrad degree in it means absolutely nothing, an MBA is absolutely critical, plus a long list of work experience, to even contemplate a job that isn't gotten through networking (where most of the best jobs are gotten).

By 2001, 9% of graduating undergrad students got a STEM degree (source). We rank at third in the world: in 2016 the US graduated half a million, while India graduated 2.6 million, and China 4.7 million (source)

All the big tech giant captains of industry, they're essentially begging America to produce more. Bill Gates, a bunch of others, they are trying to create a nation wide restructuring to push more students to STEM. Meanwhile, barely anybody is taking them up, even though its a near guarantee of a successful and well paying career (in the right field, some STEM are better than others).

Meanwhile, barely anyone is applying for them. Its too hard. Not fun enough. It doesn't pique their interest. But damn, they still want that STEM money! Its theirs, by right, as a great paying first job is an unalienable human right, and if they don't get it then society and especially capitalism failed them.
 
Jan 2019
130
USA
#47
STEM degree are hard to get, useful, and thus valuable. There is a large demand for them, a limited supply of new STEM graduates, so they get paid well.

Business degree don't teach sales. Being a good salesman and being able to make a ton of money is an individual skill that can't be taught in academia by a professor whose only business skills are those he/she read from a book, including they wrote themselves. Those who can't do, teach. One can be a great salesman without any formal education.

Regular business degrees are about the biggest waste of money. In a world where high school grad was the norm for every day workers, having a BS in business meant someone had management potential. Now an undergrad degree in it means absolutely nothing, an MBA is absolutely critical, plus a long list of work experience, to even contemplate a job that isn't gotten through networking (where most of the best jobs are gotten).

By 2001, 9% of graduating undergrad students got a STEM degree (source). We rank at third in the world: in 2016 the US graduated half a million, while India graduated 2.6 million, and China 4.7 million (source)

All the big tech giant captains of industry, they're essentially begging America to produce more. Bill Gates, a bunch of others, they are trying to create a nation wide restructuring to push more students to STEM. Meanwhile, barely anybody is taking them up, even though its a near guarantee of a successful and well paying career (in the right field, some STEM are better than others).

Meanwhile, barely anyone is applying for them. Its too hard. Not fun enough. It doesn't pique their interest. But damn, they still want that STEM money! Its theirs, by right, as a great paying first job is an unalienable human right, and if they don't get it then society and especially capitalism failed them.
It's not really a waste of money in your context either though. I think you're agreeing that you need to have an academic degree to get your foot in the door of any job worth its weight in salt. Any company I've ever worked for wouldn't consider someone without it. It may not teach you the necessary skills to succeed, but its a precursor to gain that work experience. Which I think is what you're implying already..

I'm not disagreeing that someone without a degree can excel in sales. Just that the regular every day person would need one to even be considered for a decent paying job (60K+ a year).
 
Jul 2016
8,713
USA
#48
It's not really a waste of money in your context either though. I think you're agreeing that you need to have an academic degree to get your foot in the door of any job worth its weight in salt. Any company I've ever worked for wouldn't consider someone without it. It may not teach you the necessary skills to succeed, but its a precursor to gain that work experience. Which I think is what you're implying already..

I'm not disagreeing that someone without a degree can excel in sales. Just that the regular every day person would need one to even be considered for a decent paying job (60K+ a year).
Its not a precurser, its a check the block requirement. Most jobs of any decent pay are going to require something far more important than a degree, they want previous work experience, one of those "Uh oh, how come nobody told me about this requirement?" that college grads learn the hard way. Hiring managers want to see a resume and LinkedIn profile full of experience, that can be vetted by using good references), in a trick where the wording of resume/LinkedIn matches the requirements for the job (which is how resumes are supposed to be written, each one for a specific job using tools such as this website to find bullet points that hiring managers look for).

Who is teaching this at colleges? Nobody. Because the teachers and administrators at college, even in the business schools, have zero clue about the realities of the outside world.

You only applied to white collar jobs, right? Of course they're going to require a college degree, that's how the screwed up system started in the first place. That starting about 20-30 years ago every job, even a mailroom clerk, suddenly required a four year degree. This happened about the same time there was a glut of college grads, because starting in the 80s parents/teachers/guidance counselors were duping kids into believing if they didn't go the college route they were failures in life. That wasn't a coincidence, the glut of undergrads with useless degrees caused every employer to demand it on their requirements, to the point in 21st century its near impossible to land any sort of white collar job, even an entry level, without a degree written in on your resume/application (but again, doesn't need to be real, as they rarely verify this).

The fact is there aren't many entry level 60k/year jobs anymore unless its based on a very valuable education, something that cannot be learned OJT, like engineering, or other hard STEM degrees. This thread is a perfect example of the truth to it, as countless individuals relating not only how its unfair it is that they have to pay for college, but that they aren't even getting jobs with their degrees.

And then, like clockwork, blaming capitalism for their own poor career decisions. Wrong. Authority figures in their lives gave them bad advice, and they failed to learn the truth, and still are too spoiled and lazy to adopt and overcome.
 
Jan 2019
130
USA
#49
Its not a precurser, its a check the block requirement. Most jobs of any decent pay are going to require something far more important than a degree, they want previous work experience, one of those "Uh oh, how come nobody told me about this requirement?" that college grads learn the hard way. Hiring managers want to see a resume and LinkedIn profile full of experience, that can be vetted by using good references), in a trick where the wording of resume/LinkedIn matches the requirements for the job (which is how resumes are supposed to be written, each one for a specific job using tools such as this website to find bullet points that hiring managers look for).

Who is teaching this at colleges? Nobody. Because the teachers and administrators at college, even in the business schools, have zero clue about the realities of the outside world.

You only applied to white collar jobs, right? Of course they're going to require a college degree, that's how the screwed up system started in the first place. That starting about 20-30 years ago every job, even a mailroom clerk, suddenly required a four year degree. This happened about the same time there was a glut of college grads, because starting in the 80s parents/teachers/guidance counselors were duping kids into believing if they didn't go the college route they were failures in life. That wasn't a coincidence, the glut of undergrads with useless degrees caused every employer to demand it on their requirements, to the point in 21st century its near impossible to land any sort of white collar job, even an entry level, without a degree written in on your resume/application (but again, doesn't need to be real, as they rarely verify this).

The fact is there aren't many entry level 60k/year jobs anymore unless its based on a very valuable education, something that cannot be learned OJT, like engineering, or other hard STEM degrees. This thread is a perfect example of the truth to it, as countless individuals relating not only how its unfair it is that they have to pay for college, but that they aren't even getting jobs with their degrees.

And then, like clockwork, blaming capitalism for their own poor career decisions. Wrong. Authority figures in their lives gave them bad advice, and they failed to learn the truth, and still are too spoiled and lazy to adopt and overcome.
I never used differential equations on the job. I don't think I've ever used anything but low level statistics. I did mechanical engineering, so mostly white collar jobs, yes. The truth is there is very little math that a computer can't do better than we can. Especially, in every day application.What you get from an engineer is a very analytical approach to solving a problem or developing a product. What you hope to get from a business major is a fiscally motivated approach to driving business.

I think one thing you may be devaluing is the mindset that you are attributed with upon completing a specific degree. Not many people value the technical knowledge from a specific degree track. The truth is there is very little technical knowledge you can learn in college that hasn't been automated. That even goes for CS majors. You learn a lot of math and not much language. The value is in learning how to approach the problem as an engineer. Most engineers I know still have to google equations to shorthand simple math formulas. In that time, they could have put the information in a PLM and had their answer. To take it even further, if I see shorthand math used to complete a card, I kick it back to be proofed out in our PLM. If for any reason to check for simple human error.
 
Jul 2016
8,713
USA
#50
I never used differential equations on the job. I don't think I've ever used anything but low level statistics. I did mechanical engineering, so mostly white collar jobs, yes. The truth is there is very little math that a computer can't do better than we can. Especially, in every day application.What you get from an engineer is a very analytical approach to solving a problem or developing a product. What you hope to get from a business major is a fiscally motivated approach to driving business.

I think one thing you may be devaluing is the mindset that you are attributed with upon completing a specific degree. Not many people value the technical knowledge from a specific degree track. The truth is there is very little technical knowledge you can learn in college that hasn't been automated. That even goes for CS majors. You learn a lot of math and not much language. The value is in learning how to approach the problem as an engineer. Most engineers I know still have to google equations to shorthand simple math formulas. In that time, they could have put the information in a PLM and had their answer.
My brother had a BS in comp science, and a MS in it too. He did little but learn languages, C++, all that nerd stuff. Utterly useless too, because by the time he graduated everything he learned was obsolete. Worse, this was the early 2000s, so whereas all the graduates were being headhunted right from school by corporations throwing money at them to be basic coders, suddenly nobody was headhunting them, so him, his classmates didn't even know how to land jobs, because nobody in school bothered teaching them that. He didn't even get a real legit job for years, because the industry figured out they could outsource basic CS entry level grunt work to barely educated Indians and get the same work done. It was only when my brother possessed a skill they didn't have (he became an expert on Sharepoint) did he possess a skill that earned him a good job, because it was in demand. He could build something other people couldn't, therefore he was of value.

Supply and demand dominates employment. If one learns nothing in school, they are valueless. They can be dumb as a box of rocks but if they learn the basics of being a people person, and the importance of knowing people (networking), they will likely be a success. The rest who can only regurgitate a text book, either they don't get jobs, or the ones they get are garbage. If they have useful skills, especially if the field is in great demand for those skills (like most hard STEM fields), then they hold the cards, and good jobs are offered to them. What they know and the skills they supposedly possess are in demand, and they're rare, so they get better pay, because then the employees hold the cards.

You tell me of this list which majors are sought out, useful, desired: Description of Majors

What an employer wants from an engineering grad is someone who is an engineer, who can do engineer stuff. They aren't hiring calculators, don't sell yourself short, being an engineer is quite a bit more than just learning formulas. I am related to some and know others, I would definitely say that anyone with an engineering degree probably has the potential for success because just graduating in those programs means someone is smart, has their stuff together, and kind of understands how things work (though not always understanding how people work, which is even more important). If your bosses found a way to automate most of your particular job, good for them, it means they can pay you less and there is nothing much you can do while employed to them unless you can regain the upper hand. But if you actually understand engineering, which you should if you do it as a long term career, you can land another job, because you know a skill in great demand.

Compare that to an undergrad business school graduate. They are supposed to know enough about business, management, sales, etc to make the company they work for money. Are we really going to try to make the case that a 22 year old has those abilities because some 60 year old failure in life with PhD at the end of their name made them read some outdated and insignificant books? Hell no, most of them are utter catastrophes in even their personal finance, which is why there are so few entry level jobs for them. Because the last thing anyone with any brain cells wants to do is hand a 22 year old lots of fiscal responsibility. The deciding aspect in business employment success isn't an undergrad degrees (which doesn't teach much that is useful, the good stuff usually isn't even learned until in an MBA program), its networking (which is also where MBA programs shine too, as many taking them are either about to go onto big things, or they joined the programs after years of previous business employment, so knowing those people helps one land good jobs). Getting in the door is more about gaming their resume and bullshitting an interview, probably laying on their maximum charm and personality to try to make themselves seem more confident and knowledgeable than they really are. If they have success, they get promoted up the chain and maybe some day end up as C-levels. Most don't, because most aren't actually really helping the company make money because most don't have a damn clue about business, even with a degree in it.
 

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