Does the US government have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence?

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,787
USA
Let’s pray that it will never come to.
I figure next election cycle the sectarian fighting begins, death squads vs their political enemies. Too much anger, hatred, vitriol at this point for it to not go bloody on a large scale. After that starts at a low level, it'll grow as more inflamed individuals become angry and scared enough to commit murder, which isn't that hard. Once that spirals out of control, whatever group in charge of the White House and federal govt almost surely side with its supporter base against the other, legitimizing one group and criminalizing the other. At which point American Civil War 2.0 officially begins.

After that, we'll not just take down our country in a probably decade long period of nation wide violence and instability, we'll take out our stock market, our economy, the global economy, most world currencies, and most likely start WW3, with nukes.
 
Nov 2014
416
ph
Has this been shown to work in real life , especially when the insurgents can not count on outside support?
 
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aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,787
USA
Hurt one soldier and the entire village gets nerve gassed, or everybody gets crucified alive?
Yeah, that worked so well when Hitler and the Germans did that in all occupied areas of WW2. Oh wait, it didn't help, it made things worse.

Again, that stuff only worked when the locals rebelling didn't have the means to properly launch a revolt against a real, organized, trained, experienced army full of professional warriors. In that situation, a mob of poorly armed and untrained peasants against a troop of cavalry in armor, with very functional weapons, and the knowledge and experience to use them, aren't going to have a chance, so its easy to put slaughter them.

Its not easy to slaughter them when driving in an armored infantry column into a suburban town leads to said column being ambushed by IEDs, snipers, close range assaults, and has their "safe areas" routinely subject to IEDs, mortars, rockets, etc (all home made, rather easy to make with a machine shop and basic understanding of chemistry, electricity, and electronics).

Go ahead, use air force to gas someone. Those airmen have to land some place in their country. They sleep somewhere. Their families sleep somewhere. Their children go to school somewhere. The people who pump the fuel, who make the ammo, who build the planes, all of them have same issues with security.

An individual fully untrained in the ways of modern warfare sees a state of the art modern military and imagines it nearly unstoppable. Someone who actually understands it, who even served in it, knows its strengths, but more importantly, knows its flaws. A good example of that were the Chechans in the early 90s. Most served in the Soviet Army either as conscripts or even officers. They fully knew how the Russians fought. So when the Russians showed up in Grozny thinking that the presence of an armored column in their city would deter a rebellion, it ended with Russian soldiers hung from the lamp posts along the routes that the Russian supply columns, when not being ambushed, had to drive through to drop off ammo to the units in the city center that were literally being overrun by a collection of three man hunter killer teams, who didn't fight the way they wanted them to fight, expected them to fight.
 

Mike McClure

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
6,229
Indiana
Based on the courts, does the US government have a monopoly on the use of legitimate force as Max Weber understood it, or does the 2nd Amendment basically mean that the government has no monopoly on the use of legitimate force, since the government has no right to regulate the right to bear arms.
You are editing the word regulated out of the 2nd Amendment?
 

David Vagamundo

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
4,439
Atlanta, Georgia USA
I figure next election cycle the sectarian fighting begins, death squads vs their political enemies. Too much anger, hatred, vitriol at this point for it to not go bloody on a large scale. After that starts at a low level, it'll grow as more inflamed individuals become angry and scared enough to commit murder, which isn't that hard. Once that spirals out of control, whatever group in charge of the White House and federal govt almost surely side with its supporter base against the other, legitimizing one group and criminalizing the other. At which point American Civil War 2.0 officially begins.

After that, we'll not just take down our country in a probably decade long period of nation wide violence and instability, we'll take out our stock market, our economy, the global economy, most world currencies, and most likely start WW3, with nukes.
The US population has been widely separated before now. I don’t think it is nearly as bad as it wqas in the late 60s and 70s during the Vietnam war.

But in my view if, God forbid, this happens, then whichever side the military is on will win. I think any view that says that a guerilla (or terrorist as most people would say) is likely to prevail is wrong.

And you ‘ve gone way beyond the 2d Amendment in believing that the 2d Amendment grants any right to possess and use shaped charges etc.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,787
USA
The US population has been widely separated before now. I don’t think it is nearly as bad as it wqas in the late 60s and 70s during the Vietnam war.

But in my view if, God forbid, this happens, then whichever side the military is on will win. I think any view that says that a guerilla (or terrorist as most people would say) is likely to prevail is wrong.
The present military wont be the deciding factor in a civil war, what is available is far too small to be of any use, it would need to grow by 100% minimum to be of any value, which would completely change its makeup. I'm talking about a WW2 level of growth through conscription. Not just that, but in the middle of a civil war, which means one way or another a sizeable chunk of the present military will desert, and half the population that gets called will refuse to serve. And that isn't even considering that most young Americans aren't even physically capable of military service, they're too fat, too crazy, on too many ADHD and anti-depressants, having used too many illegal drugs, having criminal records, etc.

It doesn't really matter what your opinion is on this. Are you really learned or experienced enough to make any sort of declarative statement? Do you consider yourself well educated on insurgency warfare?

And you ‘ve gone way beyond the 2d Amendment in believing that the 2d Amendment grants any right to possess and use shaped charges etc.


This cost about $2,000. The suppressor can easily be made in a home shop. The rifle is capable of making head shots out to about 400 meters, and body shots out to about 1,000 meters. In the United States, this sport exists, with tens of thousands nationwide participating on a weekend basis: Precision Rifle Series.

Read this, about how suppressed pistols, black market Glocks and homemade suppressors, were used by ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

And I didn't claim the 2nd Amendment did apply to home made munitions. Americans are "prevented" from building and using explosives by other legislation. At the present, they generally choose to obey. But if and when the time comes, an emergency setting where the new stakes are literally life and death, do you really think people wanting to fight are going to be held back in making their own weapons by laws that aren't even enforceable anymore?

Do you have any idea what happens when police stop doing basic police work, protecting the community, and focus on little more than counter insurgency work, because every time they drive around in their squad cars, a sniper shoots them in the face? They stop driving squad cars, and start driving around in armored vehicles. They don't roll out alone, its too dangerous, so any time police get a call they either disregard it (not important enough to risk their lives responding) or they will show up in essentially platoon strength of numerous vehicles, with machine gun turrets and firing ports. Do you know what happens the fifteenth time that convoy gets ambushed? They start shooting back as routine. What are they shooting back at? All known, likely, or suspected enemy firing positions. Do you know what that means in terms of reality? They are going to be driving through residential neighborhoods, after taking a few ineffective pot shots, they are going to turn their MGs on the neighborhood and shred homes made of plywood and sheet rock. Do you know what happens to people whose homes are shot up, whose family members are hit, by trigger happy govt forces? They become recruits for the insurgent group. They provide safe haven, help hide supplies in caches, they act as spotters and scouts, they help plant IEDs, they provide their sons and daughters as full time fighters.

Think about the troubles the US faced in Iraq and Afghanistan against uneducated Iraqi and Afghan rural villager, illiterate, who barely know how to aim an AK, who has zero understanding of tactics, who don't understand basic chemistry, who don't really know how a collapsing circuit works, and how easy it is to make a triggering device that works on the principle using very basic stuff found at Home Depot. Now imagine millions of GWOT combat veterans, most of whom are on one side of political spectrum, who have spent the last ten years arming themselves to the teeth in expectation that civil war is going to start soon. They already acted in the role as the security force side of a COIN war. Now they get to play the urban guerrilla. You think they'll be less competent?

Look at the terrifying implications of this incident: Metcalf sniper attack Zero lasting changes were made to deal with this threat, it was too scary and too costly to address, so it was essentially ignored. What it means is some dude with a little knowledge and a single rifle can effectively take down the entire energy grid for the West Coast states, whereby it would take half a year or more to bring it back on line. Think what happens in modern America when some of the most densely populated states have no non-gas generator energy for up to a year. And that is just child's play.
 

David Vagamundo

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
4,439
Atlanta, Georgia USA
The present military wont be the deciding factor in a civil war, what is available is far too small to be of any use, it would need to grow by 100% minimum to be of any value, which would completely change its makeup. I'm talking about a WW2 level of growth through conscription. Not just that, but in the middle of a civil war, which means one way or another a sizeable chunk of the present military will desert, and half the population that gets called will refuse to serve. And that isn't even considering that most young Americans aren't even physically capable of military service, they're too fat, too crazy, on too many ADHD and anti-depressants, having used too many illegal drugs, having criminal records, etc.

It doesn't really matter what your opinion is on this. Are you really learned or experienced enough to make any sort of declarative statement? Do you consider yourself well educated on insurgency warfare?





This cost about $2,000. The suppressor can easily be made in a home shop. The rifle is capable of making head shots out to about 400 meters, and body shots out to about 1,000 meters. In the United States, this sport exists, with tens of thousands nationwide participating on a weekend basis: Precision Rifle Series.

Read this, about how suppressed pistols, black market Glocks and homemade suppressors, were used by ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

And I didn't claim the 2nd Amendment did apply to home made munitions. Americans are "prevented" from building and using explosives by other legislation. At the present, they generally choose to obey. But if and when the time comes, an emergency setting where the new stakes are literally life and death, do you really think people wanting to fight are going to be held back in making their own weapons by laws that aren't even enforceable anymore?

Do you have any idea what happens when police stop doing basic police work, protecting the community, and focus on little more than counter insurgency work, because every time they drive around in their squad cars, a sniper shoots them in the face? They stop driving squad cars, and start driving around in armored vehicles. They don't roll out alone, its too dangerous, so any time police get a call they either disregard it (not important enough to risk their lives responding) or they will show up in essentially platoon strength of numerous vehicles, with machine gun turrets and firing ports. Do you know what happens the fifteenth time that convoy gets ambushed? They start shooting back as routine. What are they shooting back at? All known, likely, or suspected enemy firing positions. Do you know what that means in terms of reality? They are going to be driving through residential neighborhoods, after taking a few ineffective pot shots, they are going to turn their MGs on the neighborhood and shred homes made of plywood and sheet rock. Do you know what happens to people whose homes are shot up, whose family members are hit, by trigger happy govt forces? They become recruits for the insurgent group. They provide safe haven, help hide supplies in caches, they act as spotters and scouts, they help plant IEDs, they provide their sons and daughters as full time fighters.

Think about the troubles the US faced in Iraq and Afghanistan against uneducated Iraqi and Afghan rural villager, illiterate, who barely know how to aim an AK, who has zero understanding of tactics, who don't understand basic chemistry, who don't really know how a collapsing circuit works, and how easy it is to make a triggering device that works on the principle using very basic stuff found at Home Depot. Now imagine millions of GWOT combat veterans, most of whom are on one side of political spectrum, who have spent the last ten years arming themselves to the teeth in expectation that civil war is going to start soon. They already acted in the role as the security force side of a COIN war. Now they get to play the urban guerrilla. You think they'll be less competent?

Look at the terrifying implications of this incident: Metcalf sniper attack Zero lasting changes were made to deal with this threat, it was too scary and too costly to address, so it was essentially ignored. What it means is some dude with a little knowledge and a single rifle can effectively take down the entire energy grid for the West Coast states, whereby it would take half a year or more to bring it back on line. Think what happens in modern America when some of the most densely populated states have no non-gas generator energy for up to a year. And that is just child's play.
Your comments are becoming more and more frightening. Since you don’t value my opinions on this thread, I’m going to stop commenting.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,558
Las Vegas, NV USA
In the US federal marshals and FBI agents can beat you up. State police, county sheriffs and their deputies and municipal police can beat you up. In some places security guards can legally beat you up. Of course they all must have good reasons but having someone recording with a phone helps (unless they beat up that person and take his or her phone).:mad:
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,787
USA
In the US federal marshals and FBI agents can beat you up. State police, county sheriffs and their deputies and municipal police can beat you up. In some places security guards can legally beat you up. Of course they all must have good reasons but having someone recording with a phone helps (unless they beat up that person and take his or her phone).:mad:
What are you referring to? Beating on suspects resisting arrest? Or unauthorized violent interrogations or coerced confessions? The former happens often, but that's the job, it puts them in close proximity to violent individuals with major problems with authority, who live to challenge it, so scrapping is just part of the job. Like complaining when a bouncer at a bar breaks noses. Yep, that's their job.

Latter is actually rare these days, very common years ago but public scrutiny and dept Internal Affairs keep it under a lid. Most police won't get involved, no piece of crap suspect or criminal case is worth threatening their pension and bennies. Most cops I know are too cynical to care about much, its just a job.

A few who are high strung, emotional, not smart, they abuse their authority in stupid and obvious ways and usually get caught, get burned, lucky to not end up in prison themselves.

A lot of my friends are police, I almost did it, was in the midst of applying to academy when I realized with my personality I'd be super corrupt, definitely end up in prison. Lol, my squad car's trunk would be full of drop guns and drugs to plant on suspects I figured to be guilty, I'd be doing more framing than Hobby Lobby.