Does Westetn Enlightenment values cause civilizational mass suicide?

Nov 2014
459
ph
Can it be reasonably argued that the Westernization and spread of Enlightenment and women's rights values causes civilizational suicide? I mean if you look at the populations of Western countries they all have fertility rates below replacement rate, and are only being proped artificially by immigration from third world, or to be frank craphole countries like India or the Philippines. And once these new immigrants assimilate culturally to Western norms, their fertility rates also fall of a cliff, with exhibit A being Canada. It can be argued that the sub 1 TFRs of East Asian countries is also due to the spread of Western Enlightenment values like materialism and individualism over things like Confucian family values. I mean North Korea is culturally insulated from the West because of Juche, and it actually has above replacement, or replacement level TFR, compared to South Korea where the TFR is about 1, this is despite chronic food shortages at just about everywhere outside Pyongyang.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,503
here
Just shooting from the hip here, but I think people choosing to limit the amount of children they have is usually done in the name of being practical, not in an effort to tow the party line. I don’t think it’s simply a matter of correlation that birth rates fall as a country’s populace becomes more educated. Just my two cents
 
Nov 2014
459
ph
Just shooting from the hip here, but I think people choosing to limit the amount of children they have is usually done in the name of being practical, not in an effort to tow the party line. I don’t think it’s simply a matter of correlation that birth rates fall as a country’s populace becomes more educated. Just my two cents
There are statistics that show that the TFR for American women drops like a rock once they take up graduate studies. Maybe they should go back again to the Hideki Tojo way of raising children?
 
May 2018
1,022
Michigan
This may be going into bad territory for the forum, but sometimes I wonder if the Enlightenment has certain difficulties that must be dealt with: can we be so open minded our brains fall out? Sometimes, I get the feeling we have to be so liberal that we abandon Western values and welcome quasi-fascist values like Islamofascism in the name of "tolerance" and "anticolonialism."

Sorry, but that is mass suicide. Part of the Enlightenment is not letting tyrannical ideologies take you over.
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
6,101
Funnily enough the tyrannical ideologies have no problem at all identifying enlightenment values as their mortal enemy. This is a kind of blaming the enlightenment for having enemies intent on its destruction in the first place. If you don't think the enlightenment values offer anything worth defending, then don't. But then blubbing about it seems misplaced.

And by all means, those who find it too onerous to try to defend something without themselves turning into its enemy in the process are free to forego that, and can head straight for the "tyrannical ideology" of their choice instead.
 
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Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,503
here
There are statistics that show that the TFR for American women drops like a rock once they take up graduate studies. Maybe they should go back again to the Hideki Tojo way of raising children?
1. What's the Hideki Tojo way of raising children?

2. That there are lowered TFR stats for American women who take up graduate studies means what exactly? How does that negate what I said? Also, you admitted that once "the spread of Western Enlightenment values like materialism and individualism," gets to East Asian countries that then their TFR stats goes down as well, are all those women taking part in graduate studies too?
Lastly, there's the implication in your words that it's women alone who don't want to have more children, as if the men in these societies aren't on the same page.

Your argument is incoherent. NIger has a really high birthrate, is that due to the people their trying to be faithful to "Confucian values?"

Did you actually think before you posted any of this claptrap?
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,503
here
Here's a humdinger for you Reno; the four lowest countries, in terms of TFR, are (for the most part) ethnic Chinese! If we can't find faithful adherents of Confucius among the Chinese, where can we find them?



221Hong Kong1.192017 est.
222Taiwan1.132017 est.
223Macau0.952017 est.
224Singapore0.832017 est.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,603
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I would underline that it's a couple of decades that we are considering the incoming problem of overpopulation on this planet. If naturally the Western countries contain their own population [without government policies as it happens in other parts of the world ... for example in China ...] is an absolutely positive evolution of the so called "Western Civilization": it means better quality of life, more freedom and self-determination for young women [who don't spend time being pregnant], a more dynamic and active society.

The fact that US have got a TFR superior to the one of China is just because of Chinese policies. In the perspective of this thread, China should be considered "worse" than US ...
 
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Nov 2014
459
ph
Maybe there is little marginal benefit to women
I would underline that it's a couple of decades that we are considering the incoming problem of overpopulation on this planet. If naturally the Western countries contain their own population [without government policies as it happens in other parts of the world ... for example in China ...] is an absolutely positive evolution of the so called "Western Civilization": it means better quality of life, more freedom and self-determination for young women [who don't spend time being pregnant], a more dynamic and active society.

The fact that US have got a TFR superior to the one of China is just because of Chinese policies. In the perspective of this thread, China should be considered "worse" than US ...
A smaller population means a smaller GDP and less geopolitical influence in foreign policy, I mean if Germany's population was only 50 million it will have a smaller economy than France, and less influence at the EU. Would the US still be the superpower, rather than merely being an equal to China, if its population was only 200 million, instead of 320 million? Likewise does Australia's populate or perish still ring a bell, all things being equal, a larger population is a lot better than a smaller population.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,603
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Maybe there is little marginal benefit to women

A smaller population means a smaller GDP and less geopolitical influence in foreign policy, I mean if Germany's population was only 50 million it will have a smaller economy than France, and less influence at the EU. Would the US still be the superpower, rather than merely being an equal to China, if its population was only 200 million, instead of 320 million? Likewise does Australia's populate or perish still ring a bell, all things being equal, a larger population is a lot better than a smaller population.
Western societies naturally contain their population, but their population is not decreasing dramatically ... TFR doesn't indicate if a population is increasing or decreasing. It depends also on mortality and on the composition of the population. TFR is related to women. Usually to "exchange" a couple after a generation you need 2 children, but what if a man has got children with more than a woman? If the mortality is really low, even with a TFR <2 the population can keep on growing ...

In fact, US population is still growing [by a little 0.7% List of countries by population growth rate - Wikipedia].

Projections say that the population will remain substantially stable [and this is also the purpose of the Chinese policies of demographic control].