Don't understand about 1911 Chinese revolution

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,283
#1
I don't know much about Chinese history, but there are some things I don't understand. Why was there a child emperor? Was it that other people wanted someone they could control? There were less rigid rules about succession than in Europe, and Emperor's sons by different women could become emperor. So there shouldn't have been the need for a child ruler as in Europe.

A republic was created, but it wasn't very democratic and things were still run by the aristocracy as before. China had such a tradition of imperial rule. Was there much support for a new emperor, either from the royal family or to create a new Han Chinese dynasty? I believe an official declared himself emperor. Was the imperial system not seen as capable of modernizing? Was a republic seen as providing stability, as there might be civil wars between competing emperors? In any case, the Chinese Civil War and Japanese invasion seems similar to earlier warring states periods.
 
Jul 2019
28
hongkong
#2
The Chinese emperor did not attach importance to bloodlines. Although the inheritance system is prescribed by law, there are many violations of this system. Nor does it pay attention to the identity and nationality of the nobility. the emperor of Ming is a Beggar, and the emperor of Yuan is a Mongolian.

who can become an emperor? The Chinese believe able men are emperors. Because of this, the Japanese believe that they can also rule China and launch wars many times. If they succeed, they will say "we are Chinese", and then they can legally rule China. the Qing Emperor is like this.

But this did not really change in 1911, China no longer has an emperor, but people still follow the tradition, other officials compete fiercely, and then the civil war broke out until ccp finally won the final victory in 1949.

The above is the political logic of the Chinese.
 
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Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,629
#3
I don't know much about Chinese history, but there are some things I don't understand. Why was there a child emperor? Was it that other people wanted someone they could control? There were less rigid rules about succession than in Europe, and Emperor's sons by different women could become emperor. So there shouldn't have been the need for a child ruler as in Europe.
Big part of the answer is this rather formidable lady:
Empress Dowager Cixi - Wikipedia
 
#4
I don't know much about Chinese history, but there are some things I don't understand. Why was there a child emperor? Was it that other people wanted someone they could control? There were less rigid rules about succession than in Europe, and Emperor's sons by different women could become emperor. So there shouldn't have been the need for a child ruler as in Europe.

A republic was created, but it wasn't very democratic and things were still run by the aristocracy as before. China had such a tradition of imperial rule. Was there much support for a new emperor, either from the royal family or to create a new Han Chinese dynasty? I believe an official declared himself emperor. Was the imperial system not seen as capable of modernizing? Was a republic seen as providing stability, as there might be civil wars between competing emperors? In any case, the Chinese Civil War and Japanese invasion seems similar to earlier warring states periods.
1. probably mostly due to the Empress Dowager Cixi's desire to remain in charge, thus preferring a child emperor, she didn't seem to forsee that she's very old (and would die literally a few day after the previous emperor.)
2. The period immediately after the abdication was quite chaotic, the Qing was a interesting system where the main officials were a mix of aristocratic Manchu / Mongols with a lot of Han chinese selected through the imperial exam system, by the late Qing other folks were joining in, from what I recall the nobles exited the politics rapidly after 1911 but many remained as part of the new senate etc, the first Prime minister for the new government was a guy that was sent to the US as a kid. However Yuan Shi Kai inserted a lot of his generals into the government which laid the ground work for the later warlord period.

It is true that throughout the Republic era basically things never stabilized, the closest it got was the period in the 30s until the full Japanese invasion, but even then regional warlords had a lot of influence (though gradually waning) and the Japanese annexed Manchuria almost as soon as the KMT manage to get control.
 
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VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,547
Florania
#5
1. probably mostly due to the Empress Dowager Cixi's desire to remain in charge, thus preferring a child emperor, she didn't seem to forsee that she's very old (and would die literally a few day after the previous emperor.)
2. The period immediately after the abdication was quite chaotic, the Qing was a interesting system where the main officials were a mix of aristocratic Manchu / Mongols with a lot of Han chinese selected through the imperial exam system, by the late Qing other folks were joining in, from what I recall the nobles exited the politics rapidly after 1911 but many remained as part of the new senate etc, the first Prime minister for the new government was a guy that was sent to the US as a kid. However Yuan Shi Kai inserted a lot of his generals into the government which laid the ground work for the later warlord period.

It is true that throughout the Republic era basically things never stabilized, the closest it got was the period in the 30s until the full Japanese invasion, but even then regional warlords had a lot of influence (though gradually waning) and the Japanese annexed Manchuria almost as soon as the KMT manage to get control.
The KMT only assumed true control over territories somewhat similar to the Ming Dynasty (or even smaller.) Do any people have the map of the de facto territories of the ROC at its "height"?
 
#8
This site is way more exciting:
Historical Atlas of Asia Pacific (18 September 1931): Mukden Incident

The fact was that Chiang never controlled the claimed territories of the ROC.
That's the map before the KMT northern march in the late 20s, however it's also a pretty useful map to view things in the 30s.

CKS took out Sun Chuan Fang and Wu Peifu, largely absorbing their territory (Sun's territory especially, as it includes Chang's home province and msot of his core funder and supporter are the Shanghai elites.), while the other warlords mostly survived with somewhat reduced influence, the big exception is Zhang Zuolin who was assassinated by the Japanese in the eve of the KMT march on Beijing and his son took over and submitted... however almost immediately after, the Japanese took advantage of the younger Zhang and his forces being out of town and took over Manchuria.

Yan Xi shan remained in power almost throughout in his home region of Shanxi until 1949, even through the Japanese and all, Feng Yu Xiang mostly lost power after the events of the late 20s however he was always more communist leaning and the region he controlled became more of a hot bed of the communist insurgency .

The Sichuan region remained fragmented until ironically the Japanese invasion and CKS moved his capital and resource into the region, indirectly "solving" the problem.

The Qing hai / Gansu region was largely ran by the Ma clan warlords who nominally was supporting CKS, but he had little direct control over them.

The region controlled by Tang Jiyao remained mostly semi-autonomous, though Tang was overthrown by Long Yun and he remained mostly very cooperative with the KMT, though by the 40s it became increasingly contentious and eventually the KMT staged a coup to remove him during the very late stages of WW2.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,022
SoCal
#9
1. probably mostly due to the Empress Dowager Cixi's desire to remain in charge, thus preferring a child emperor, she didn't seem to forsee that she's very old (and would die literally a few day after the previous emperor.)
That's because Cixi in all likelihood ordered his murder while she was on her deathbed, though:

Who Murdered China's Emperor 100 Years Ago?
 
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