Early Soviet imperialism

Jun 2016
1,786
Russia
Let's explain what is occupation. When England occupies for example Australia every native Australian is killed or at least robbed. The occupied by US army becomes as poorer as richer became US Americans. Each country that occupied by NATO or by US became as poor as church mouse. Now let's see at Georgia and Armenia: they were never as rich as they were only 30 years. If there was occupation than it were very strange one: in Armenia and Georgia Russians always were minorities, no Russian ever commanded in Georgia and Armenia. Bur Russia was commanded by Georgian Stalin and rather many ministers were Armenians. The same about Baltic, Ukrainian, Polish etc occupation of Soviet Union.
 
Sep 2019
185
Slovenia
That very many people died in all countries occupied by USSR and many others were used as slave labour that is the real sign of very brutal occupation yes, which all those countries shared. And we are of course talking about milions.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,827
SoCal
You guys forgot about the Whites and the Russian Civil War. On this White's propaganda poster Lenin and Trotzky are depicted as surrounded by Whites and Entente forces, note the White Finns in northwest and Poles in the west /between the Finns and the Poles is the Northwestern White Army of General Yudenich.

View attachment 23179

Though in reality Poles didnt cooperate with the the Whites in the slightest. I read that Pilsudski was suspicious of all Russians, regardless of their colour / political orientation - white red black green they were all the same. Even read accusations that during the march of General Denikin towards Moscow, Poland concluded a temporary truce with the Bolsheviks and because of that they were able to transfer several divisions and stop the Volunteer army less than 200 kilometers from Moscow. The enemies of the Reds and their in/famous lack of cooperation.
Yep, the Poles believed that the Bolsheviks would allow them to keep more Russian territory than the Whites would since, unlike the Whites, the Bolsheviks had big dreams of eventual world revolution.

Is it? Bolshevik army first struck at Polish forces at Vilnius on 4th of January, and on 5th they created a Polish Revolutionary Council which was meant to be the future Communist government in Poland after the victorious war.

There was no official declaration of war and the border wasn't demarcated yet, both armies were rushing to take control over as much territory as possible from the retreating German army.
If the Bolsheviks were smarter, they'd have limited themselves to the Curzon Line boundary.
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Let's explain what is occupation. When England occupies for example Australia every native Australian is killed or at least robbed. The occupied by US army becomes as poorer as richer became US Americans. Each country that occupied by NATO or by US became as poor as church mouse. Now let's see at Georgia and Armenia: they were never as rich as they were only 30 years. If there was occupation than it were very strange one: in Armenia and Georgia Russians always were minorities, no Russian ever commanded in Georgia and Armenia. Bur Russia was commanded by Georgian Stalin and rather many ministers were Armenians. The same about Baltic, Ukrainian, Polish etc occupation of Soviet Union.
- a few comments.

First, both Stalin and all non-Russian rulers of the Soviet Union were Russified as much as possible. The memoirs of Stalin's daughter Svetlana are noteworthy, where she describes an interesting scene. Her younger brother Vasily did not know that they were Georgians, and heard about this from some familiar boys. Elsewhere in her memoirs she says that her father was "completely Russified." I can add from myself that over the years Stalin became a real Russian chauvinist

The same is with Ukraine for many years. Most of the leaders of the Communist Party of Ukraine till the WWII were - a Pole, Russians, Jews. And the number of Ukrainians in the CPSU (b) in the 1920s was about 3% - despite the fact that at that time there were only two and a half times less Ukrainians in the USSR than Russians. According to the 1926 census, there were 77, 791,124 Russians and 31,194, 976 Ukrainians in the USSR. And I can add that in Ukraine with her rich natural resources and developed industry people lived much poorer within all Soviet era than in neighboring Poland .

Georgia looked rich in the post-war period primarily because the war with its ruin did not reach it.
It remains to add that in later years Georgia lived better than other republics because there was much less “Soviet power” in her than in other republics ))

And all the Soviet republics of Central Asia did not look wealthy at all. The most part of their common people were poor - especially their peasants.
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Yep, the Poles believed that the Bolsheviks would allow them to keep more Russian territory than the Whites would since, unlike the Whites, the Bolsheviks had big dreams of eventual world revolution.
- You probably call Russian territory the territory of the Russian Empire in your post - ?

In 1919-1920, Poland fought with the Russian Red Army on the territory that this army had recently occupied. This was not the territory of Soviet Russia (RSFSR). In fact, two predators fought for the right to possess Ukrainian and Belarusian ethnic lands. And before that, the White Russians fought with the Red Russians for the right to possess Ukraine.

And the whole story began with the ultimatum of Soviet Russia to the Ukrainian People’s Republic (December 1917). And with the intervention of the armed forces of Soviet Russia (from the middle of 1918 - the RSFSR) in the Ukrainian People’s Republic.

The Moscow authorities successfully combined the slogans of a world revolution with a series of military campaigns of their army in order to restore the territory of the Russian Empire within the borders of 1914. That is why 252 former tsarist generals and more than 70 thousand former tsarist officers went to serve in the Red Army in 1918-1920.

Количество царских офицеров в Красной и Белой Армиях. Цифры (in Russian).

As General Bonch-Bruevich said, “for patriotic reasons.” So since the end of 1917 the Bolshevik authorities of Russia appeared in imperial hypostasis.

The process of rebuilding the Russian Empire under the new government ended in 1940. It was just not possible to take over Warsaw and most of Finland. But the red flag stood over Galicia and Bukovina, which were never part of the Russian Empire
 
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Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
You guys forgot about the Whites and the Russian Civil War.
I think thatin the events of 1917-1920 on the lands of the former Russian Empire it is correct to call the Civil War only a war on the territory which in 1918 was called the RSFSR. Beyond her borders both the White Russians and the Red Russians acted as an imperial force, and all their armies essentially fought for the reconstruction of United and Indivisible Russia - Единая и Неделимая Россия - within the RI borders of 1914. At the same time, both of them strangled young national republics that appeared on the non-Russian outskirts of the former Russian Empire. And sought to return them to the dictates of the Russian state.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,827
SoCal
- You probably call Russian territory the territory of the Russian Empire in your post - ?

In 1919-1920, Poland fought with the Russian Red Army on the territory that this army had recently occupied. This was not the territory of Soviet Russia (RSFSR). In fact, two predators fought for the right to possess Ukrainian and Belarusian ethnic lands. And before that, the White Russians fought with the Red Russians for the right to possess Ukraine.

And the whole story began with the ultimatum of Soviet Russia to the Ukrainian People’s Republic (December 1917). And with the intervention of the armed forces of Soviet Russia (from the middle of 1918 - the RSFSR) in the Ukrainian People’s Republic.

The Moscow authorities successfully combined the slogans of a world revolution with a series of military campaigns of their army in order to restore the territory of the Russian Empire within the borders of 1914. That is why 252 former tsarist generals and more than 70 thousand former tsarist officers went to serve in the Red Army in 1918-1920.

Количество царских офицеров в Красной и Белой Армиях. Цифры (in Russian).

As General Bonch-Bruevich said, “for patriotic reasons.” So since the end of 1917 the Bolshevik authorities of Russia appeared in imperial hypostasis.

The process of rebuilding the Russian Empire under the new government ended in 1940. It was just not possible to take over Warsaw and most of Finland. But the red flag stood over Galicia and Bukovina, which were never part of the Russian Empire
By "Russian territory", I meant territories that were claimed by Russia. The Bolsheviks were more willing to renounce--at least temporarily--their territorial claims to Galicia, Volhynia, western Belarus, Vilnius, et cetera than the Whites were since the Bolsheviks (unlike the Whites) believed that world revolution would eventually make national borders meaningless.

Also, AFAIK, the Bolsheviks did not merely aim to restore Russia's 1914 borders but also to conquer Galicia. I wonder if the Bolsheviks already had Subcarpathian Ruthenia in their sights in 1920 as well.
 
Jun 2016
1,786
Russia
[
- a few comments.

First, both Stalin and all non-Russian rulers of the Soviet Union were Russified as much as possible. The memoirs of Stalin's daughter Svetlana are noteworthy, where she describes an interesting scene. Her younger brother Vasily did not know that they were Georgians, and heard about this from some familiar boys. Elsewhere in her memoirs she says that her father was "completely Russified." I can add from myself that over the years Stalin became a real Russian chauvinist

The same is with Ukraine for many years. Most of the leaders of the Communist Party of Ukraine till the WWII were - a Pole, Russians, Jews. And the number of Ukrainians in the CPSU (b) in the 1920s was about 3% - despite the fact that at that time there were only two and a half times less Ukrainians in the USSR than Russians. According to the 1926 census, there were 77, 791,124 Russians and 31,194, 976 Ukrainians in the USSR. And I can add that in Ukraine with her rich natural resources and developed industry people lived much poorer within all Soviet era than in neighboring Poland .

Georgia looked rich in the post-war period primarily because the war with its ruin did not reach it.
It remains to add that in later years Georgia lived better than other republics because there was much less “Soviet power” in her than in other republics ))

And all the Soviet republics of Central Asia did not look wealthy at all. The most part of their common people were poor - especially their peasants.
About russifiyng of Stalin etc this are only your, Goebbels and Svetlana's words. As we know Svetlana served to CIA and can't be truthfull witness. Why do we need witnesses at all? Are there not enough evidence that Stalin spoke Russian rather badly and that during his rule Georgia flourished as never before? Well, to be heard he used Russian and knew it better than you, but all the same he never betrayed his homeland. Most of Georgian resorts, palaces, culture buildings are built in 20s and in 30s. The entire industry of today's Georgia was built in Soviet time.
I don't understand why do you compare Ukraine to Poland and not to Russia? May be because the life of "occupied" Ukrainians was without any doubts much better than the life of "occupants". Useless to mention that entire Ukrainian industry was built in Soviet time, most giant plants were built in 20s and 30s. Btw, the same thing about Central Asia.
 

At Each Kilometer

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
3,930
Bulgaria
I think thatin the events of 1917-1920 on the lands of the former Russian Empire it is correct to call the Civil War only a war on the territory which in 1918 was called the RSFSR. Beyond her borders both the White Russians and the Red Russians acted as an imperial force, and all their armies essentially fought for the reconstruction of United and Indivisible Russia - Единая и Неделимая Россия - within the RI borders of 1914. At the same time, both of them strangled young national republics that appeared on the non-Russian outskirts of the former Russian Empire. And sought to return them to the dictates of the Russian state.
Why do you think that the struggle against the Reds in the East and in Poland are two separate and unrelated to each other events i wonder? Actually I was wrong Polish government at the time did not exclude a possible cooperation with the Volunteer army, having in mind 'the enemy of my enemy' principle and even sent general Aleksander Karnicki to talk with Denikin about the issue, but due to the undeclared position towards Polish eastern borders of this White general negotiations failed. This is a prime example as i wrote of the infamous inability of the anti-Bolshevik forces to cooperate with each other. Tukhachevsky years later said that If the Poles and Denikin were able to make an uneasy no doubt alliance then White's march towards Moscow combined with Polish offensive from the West, check the propaganda poster could have ended with the defeat of the Reds.