Effectiveness of Chinese martial arts in the Wubeiji

Jul 2019
44
Victoria
I have finally acquired a complete translation of the Muyedobotongji have found good interest in learning about chinese pike drills. But when it comes down to chaptera on polearm drills for the Guandao and Michumdao, there seems to be a lot of "wasted movements" from spinning. I know that guandaos are excused because they were often for training but it just seems impractical in my eyes to use the lighter Michumdao this way.
 
Nov 2016
1,598
Germany
it just seems impractical in my eyes to use the lighter Michumdao this way
I found a video of the exercise with the guan dao, which you have no problem with. Unfortunately, there are no google hits for the keyword "michumdao" or "michum dao" in the web. Are you sure that you have spelled the word correctly?

 
Jul 2019
44
Victoria
I found a video of the exercise with the guan dao, which you have no problem with. Unfortunately, there are no google hits for the keyword "michumdao" or "michum dao" in the web. Are you sure that you have spelled the word correctly?

I do have the problem with the techniques in the guandao drills because of the spinning but i thought sonce guandaos were often used for exercises perhaps it would be excusable. Michumdao probably doesnt show up because it is a korean translation. Apparently its also called 破刀 padao, maybe it means pudao?
 
Nov 2016
1,598
Germany
I do have the problem with the techniques in the guandao drills because of the spinning but i thought sonce guandaos were often used for exercises perhaps it would be excusable
That's what I meant when I said you have no problem.

Michumdao probably doesnt show up because it is a korean translation. Apparently its also called 破刀 padao, maybe it means pudao?
Here is two pu dao clips. This weapon is a little bit smaller than the guan dao. But the clips don't show the, let's say, ornamental moves that you feel are "wasted" (and which you can often see in martial arts movies because they look very effective).

Could you explain in more detail why you feel that those "wasted" moves make sense with the guan dao but not with the pu dao?


 
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Jul 2019
44
Victoria
That's what I meant when I said you have no problem.



Here is two pu dao clips. This weapon is a little bit smaller than the guan do. But the clips don't show the, let's say, ornamental moves that you feel are "wasted" (and which you can often see in martial arts movies because they look very effective).

Could you explain in more detail why you feel that those "wasted" moves make sense with the guan do but not with the pu dao?


I dont understand how you can look at the moves in the first clips and not see it as flashy and completely ornamental. What practical usage would a halberdier (lets say of Koxinga's army) have literally jumping arounding wildly with 20kg of steel lammelar straped around his entire body with a weapon that is praised for its heavy momentuous use? How is that going to play out in formation or in skirmishes because every other art in the Muyedobotongji are very linear and straightforward with very limited excessive moment. There's no spinning around like a maniac in Changdao form or Wolf brush form or Trident form. Furthermore i have stated that the guandao moves are excusable because they were often used for strength testing and not necessarily for combat. The pudao however IS used for combat and those movements are wasted by giving the enemy an ample opportunity to stab you in the back.

The second clip is a guy using a dadao and not a pudao. He also calls it a horsechopper for no reason. The technique seems very practical but he only shows one technique and not the 18 in the Muyedobotongji
 
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Nov 2016
1,598
Germany
I dont understand how you can look at the moves in the first clips and not see it as flashy and completely ornamental. What practical usage would a halberdier (lets say of Koxinga's army) have literally jumping arounding wildly with 20kg of steel lammelar straped around his entire body with a weapon that is praised for its heavy momentuous use?
As for the first clip, well, I think that if someone attacks in this way, i.e. like a whirlwind, an enemy group which is, let's say, armed with short swords, he will cause a lot of damage there, because he will stab and give blows in all directions at high speed. I would say that this would have a very combative effect. As a method in a formation, it is certainly not intended.

Basically I would say about the ornamental movements, as they are performed in the clip with the guan dao, that their purpose is to enhance the manual control over the weapon, i.e. the fighter becomes one with the weapon, so that it is used in maximum efficiency at the moment of the actual attack.
 
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Jul 2019
44
Victoria
As for the first clip, well, I think that if someone attacks in this way, i.e. like a whirlwind, an enemy group which is, let's say, armed with short swords, he will cause a lot of damage there, because he will stab and give blows in all directions at high speed. I would say that this would have a very combative effect. As a method in a formation, it is certainly not intended.

Basically I would say about the ornamental movements, as they are performed in the clip with the guan dao, that their purpose is to enhance the manual control over the weapon so that it is used in maximum efficiency at the moment of the actual attack.
Thats what i thought too. If you strike them like this it would scare someone to death. But what if enemies equipped themselves in 5m long pikes? Then the harberdier is in great disadvantage. For the guan dao clip with the rotating, like you said makes a lot more sense.
 
Jul 2015
293
Japari Park
Guandao techniques were not found in Wubeizhi. Also, it is not a "weapon for training", it is a weapon of war. Please do not confuse imperial exam weightlifting guandao with the actual weapon. I am not sure what is a Michumdao.

Modern wushu performance has very little relation with the actual martial arts.
 
Jul 2019
44
Victoria
Guandao techniques were not found in Wubeizhi. Also, it is not a "weapon for training", it is a weapon of war. Please do not confuse imperial exam weightlifting guandao with the actual weapon. I am not sure what is a Michumdao.

Modern wushu performance has very little relation with the actual martial arts.
If it wasn't found in the Wubeizhi, where did the Koreans get it from? The Muyedobotongji doesn't list it. Also it says in the last sentence, "Mao Yuan Yi said: that the cresent sabre looks very fearsome but is not effective for combat."

Michumdao is the Korean prounciation of the chinese blade with similiar characteristic to the Hyeopdo.

My initial prompt was that both the guandao form and Hyeopdo form has a lot of spinning. No one said wushu performance was similiar to "real" martial arts.

EDIT: the title was suppose to be Muyedobotongji not wubeizhi
 
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Jul 2015
293
Japari Park
If it wasn't found in the Wubeizhi, where did the Koreans get it from? The Muyedobotongji doesn't list it.
No idea to be honest. Probably some Chinese arts that already went extinct in China.

A few Muyedobotongji martial arts can only be found in Muyedobotongji itself (Horseback double swords, horseback flail etc).


Also it says in the last sentence, "Mao Yuan Yi said: that the cresent sabre looks very fearsome but is not effective for combat."
Yes, I am aware of that. He's definitely wrong though. We have multiple depictions of guandao in combat as well as surviving Guandao that saw combat use/combat damage.

My initial prompt was that both the guandao form and Hyeopdo form has a lot of spinning. No one said wushu performance was similiar to "real" martial arts.

EDIT: the title was suppose to be Muyedobotongji not wubeizhi
Hyeopdo etc in Muyedobotongji seems to follow the same taolu (routine) training method as often seen in many Chinese martial arts. Taolu is basically a training routine that familiarize/trains the practitioner to various movement in the art (the fancy "wushu performance" is basically an over-exaggerated form of taolu).

Taolu sometimes compress multiple techniques into one movement (or one flow of movement) to save time. For example, Wing Chun Biu Jee form throws alternate left and right elbow strikes in opposite directions in rapid succession, which teach the practitioner how to elbow strike using either of his arms. But you are not supposed to throw multiple elbow strikes in rapid succession during actual fighting. Similar logic can be applied to weapon forms as well.