effects of the Spanish Armada wins

Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
5,209
Netherlands
It was thought to take Ireland... but King denied because the goal was to restablish the Catholicism in England... not in Ireland.. after England became Catholic.. Ireland would have been free as Philip as King of Ireland.
Yet precisely a hundred years later some idiot prince managed the feat with about a month of preparation. Difference being he was shipping the army directly.
 
Likes: benzev
Feb 2011
1,067
Scotland
It was thought to take Ireland... but King denied because the goal was to restablish the Catholicism in England... not in Ireland.. after England became Catholic.. Ireland would have been free as Philip as King of Ireland.
The fourth armada did just that- and landed an army at Kinsale, at precisely the complete other end of Ireland from where a hitherto-successful revolt was taking place. Eventually an Irish army struggled to the other end of the country, only for the combined Irish-Spanish force to be defeated by the English army investing Kinsale. Shortly after the Spanish force of about 3,500-4,000 surrendered to the English and were shipped home.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,482
Spain
Yet precisely a hundred years later some idiot prince managed the feat with about a month of preparation. Difference being he was shipping the army directly.

How not... Mr Willempie ... I wrote SANTA CRUZ.... planned the direct invasion from Spain to England... shipping the forces in Spain... 100.000 men and 700 ships... I wrote in this forum the forces... I can write here the original records written by SANTA CRUZ.... how was the plan... Are you saying Santa Cruz´s plan was not a direct attack to England? Because remember... everything I write I can proved it... and you know...

100.000 men shipping in Spain... straight on England...But unfortunately.. Santa Cruz died in 1588 and Santa Cruz plan was rejected by Philip sooner.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,482
Spain
The fourth armada did just that- and landed an army at Kinsale, at precisely the complete other end of Ireland from where a hitherto-successful revolt was taking place. Eventually an Irish army struggled to the other end of the country, only for the combined Irish-Spanish force to be defeated by the English army investing Kinsale. Shortly after the Spanish force of about 3,500-4,000 surrendered to the English and were shipped home.
Well, as you well say.. it was not an invasion but a Direct suppor to an Irish Rebellion.... kinsale proved the superiority of the Spanish Army. In 100 days, the Army had 100 casualties (I guess around 20 KIA and 80 WIA) English casualties over 6.000.

Outnumbered, deprived of reinforcements and provisions, and under constant English bombardment, the Spaniards had held the town of Kinsale for more than 3 months. The English made no attempt to storm it.

English never wanted the "contact", the "battle" with Spanish Forces...and never storm it....But Kinsale would be very interesting for a movie...

The Spanish Hero was Don Juan del Águila a respected veteran soldier known in Spain as “the man born without fear ". He had joined the army at age 18 and had worked his way up through the ranks. He became the equivalent of a regimental colonel in his thirties. He had served with distinction in almost every conceivable theatre of war. (Don Juan del Águila fought in Italy, Germany, Flanders, France, Balkan, Mediterranean scenario, Portugal, England and now Ireland...

But when this history begins.. Don Juan was in jail, accused to accept bribes (a corruption case in administration). he was offered the choice of either rotting in prison or leading an invasion that many regarded as a suicide mission. It was his last chance, at age 56, to salvage his career.

The English hero was Mr Charles Blount, a 38-year-old English commander, was living in the shadow of the gallows.

Kinsale is full of heroism. For example, at one outpost, a Spanish garrison of 33 men and a boy kept an English force of 10,000 at bay for four full days before finally succumbing.

During the 100 days-siege.... Don Juan del Águila challenged Blount a sword duel ... I guess remembrance from Gran Capitán´s days in Italy...but Blount was not a French Knight... He was too much practical to play his life with a Spanish Sword-master (Maestro de Espada) .... he did well .. he knew he had no chances and did not accept the challenge ... British pragmatism...for sure.

The exhausted English knew they couldn’t take Kinsale without appalling bloodshed. Eventually they agreed terms and Águila’s Spaniards sailed home undefeated, their flags flying and their weapons by their sides.

One key clause almost wrecked the agreement. Blount demanded that Águila surrender his Irish insurgent allies. Águila told him that if this were even mentioned again, they were back to war. He would face Blount at the breach and “lay 500 of your best men on the earth”.

Spaniards in Kinsale.... never they were defeated....not more than the Britis Army in Suez in 1956. Spaniards back to Peninsula.. with their flags, their weapons, their money... everything. The were undefeated.

Águila retained all his treasures, guns, weapons, ammunition and flags. Honour was upheld. He would leave Kinsale undefeated.

Maybe in English language word Capitulation has anothers meanings I don´t know... In Spanish a capitulation means surrender.... In Spanish capitulation is:

BAYLEN, STALINGRAD, DIEM-BIEN-PHU, TUNIS, SEDAN, YORKTOWN, SINGAPORE....


Kinsale was not nothing as those names... an undefeated military force evacuated a position by agreements ... as happened in Suez in 1956... I didn´t know English think Suez was a surrender as Yorktown or Singapore.

Kinsale proved English Army was not matched in a battlefield.

The Spanish troops held out for 100 days – enduring a crippling siege, ravaged by hunger and dysentery, and shivering through the harshest winter in living memory – before sailing home undefeated.

The defense of Castle Park (Nowadays James Fort) one of the greatest feat in the history of the world.

English commander Charles Blount moves to seize the crucial subsidiary fort of Castle Park (now James Fort), that controls the entrance to Kinsale Harbour.
When Blount discovers there are only 34 Spanish soldiers defending Castle Park, he thinks that victory will be, almost literally, a walk in the park. He was seriously mistaken…


33 men and a boy. That was the total force charged with the defence of Castle Park. It seemed a pushover for Blount with his heavy artillery and his thousands of fresh troops: so much so, that he decided to postpone the attack until November 17, Coronation Day, and present his victory, neatly wrapped, as a gift to Queen Elizabeth I.

Regards
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,209
I agree that if Spain had landed a large force in England, it would have had a good chance of taking control of some or all or the country. However, the English navy prevented that.

I agree that England was a large percentage Roman Catholic at the time. However, the threat of a Spanish invasion to make England Catholic like Spain created more support for Elizabeth, and helped England become mostly protestant.

Spain had a good chance to make Ireland independent or take control of Ireland. However, the Spanish intervention was disasterous for Ireland.

While England certainly didn't win the war with Spain, the result was disasterous to what you call the Catholic cause in the British Isles.
 
Likes: Dave Evans
May 2017
1,004
France
English people were too cultivated and educated to accept the come back of the papism and medieval s superstition.The period 1534-1690, from the anglian s schism of Henri VIII to the battle of the Boyne,is the period of the definitive declin of papism-the christianism is not the propriety of Roma-and of the power of the old Church.The reformators of the XVIth century-the assassination of Luther would have change Nothing as the movement of changement was so strong-with the help of the new tecnics of print invented by Gutemberg, have permited to destroy the monopole of the edition and to create the basis of the intellectual liberties;a lot of libraries were independent, and so all the new ideas could circulate in Europe.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,482
Spain
I agree that if Spain had landed a large force in England, it would have had a good chance of taking control of some or all or the country. However, the English navy prevented that.s.
I must to recognize that although you are wrong because of British Propaganda (from 19th Century.. not before), Mr Betgo, you are intellectually honest and you write what you honestly believe. +1. I admire your intellectual honesty ... the same cannot be said of others ...

Victorian propaganda made some myths (UK is not the only country manipulate History...100% countries just do it... Spain too, and Russia, USA, France etc). The myths invented by Victorian Age in UK were:

1st Myth: The defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 was a decisive victory for the English that marked England’s triumph in its war with Spain

Fact: False on all accounts. Spain won the War (till Monty wrote about that) and Spain defeated England in most of the land and naval battles... and won a favorable treaty in 1604

2nd Myth: The defeat of the Spanish Armada was the beginning of England’s control of the high seas

Fact: False. Spain continued ruling the waves...and when Spain lost the naval hegemony in 17th Century.... it is not going to be because England but because of Netherlands...

3rd Myth: Spain was eclipsed as a great power following the Spanish Armada, sinking into insolvency and rapid decline, while England became rich, prosperous, and powerful.

Fact: False. Spain continued with the Military hegemony till late 17th Century... around 1659/1670 and when Spain lost the Military Hegemony is not going to be because of England but because of France.

4th Myth: British Empire born following the defeat of the Spanish Armada,

Fact: False. Spain continued controlling Atlantic and Pacific Oceans... and England is not going to be an Empire till 18th Century...

5tth Myth: Philip II wanted to conquer England and the annexation to the Empire....

Fact: False. Philip II had very modest goals.. only to protect Catholic People in British Islands and a Catholic King.

6th Myth: The Battle of Gravelines was an English Victory.

Fact: It was an indecisive d battle, without winners or losers ... as the reports of both enemies evidenced ...

7th Myth: English Navy won the 5 actions took place in 1588

Fact: Any Fleet won any action...all the skirmishes and the battle were indecisive.

8th Myth: The Spanish Armada was dubbed “the Invincible Armada (this myth has been reproduced in this thread by some members in this forum).

Fact: FALSE. Spanish Armada NEVER was dubbed Invincible Armada but REAL Y FELICÍSIMA ARMADA (Royal and very happy Navy).

9th: English lacked of casualties.

9th; English sustained thousands casualties.

10th: After Gravelinas, English People celebrated the victory as V in 1945...

Fact: Not celebrations at all. The Danger continued and nobody was aware of victory.


And remember dear Betgo:

For Philip England was a sideshow; his prime objectives were on the European Continent, and above all he simply wanted England to stay out of his way and when England asked for peace and did cease hostilities with the Treaty of London in 1604, Spaniards achieved their objectives.

Napoleon died in St Helena... Hitler killed himself in Bunker.... Philip II died in his home, El Escorial, when he was 71 yo (not a young for those standers) in the summit of the Power.. He was the only man on Earth with Dominions in North America, Central America, South America, Caribbean, North Africa, South Africa, West and Eastern Africa, Persia, Arabia, India, Cambodge, Japan, Taiwan, China, Philippines, Borneo, Brunei, Guam.... etc etc etc... He was in Tucsón, Arizona and in Tierra del Fuego (the southern land on Earth before Antartic)...

Who said... did he fail?

Don FILIPO...always in Black wore....

 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,482
Spain
I don´t know how prevented when the troops not even were embarked.... if Troops embarked in Spain as Santa Cruz wrote... landing would have been unavoidable...100.000 men and 700 ships would have been enough to conquer England.
 

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