EP elections 2019

Do you plan to vote on the EP elections?


  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .
Status
Closed

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,034
well if back to history, it would be good to look at facts... What has the EU achieved and how it has improved the lives of ordinary citizens vs what it has failed and how it has made things worse

I find it interesting that pro EU candidates (regardless of country) are generally only bringing 2 arguments:

1 - EU = peace
This is a debatable argument in itself, but even if agreeing with the argument it raises another much bigger problem...... since they are not talking about any other achievement, does it mean THIS is the only one... Clearly if the EU had created jobs, solved unemployment, immigration , improved security, the environment (typically those are among the top concerns of most voters) and brought prosperity they would talk about that, would they not ?
So does it mean that the EU has failed in all these areas ?

2- EU = we are stronger to negotiate with the chinese , the US and others
This is a dubious argument since quite often the EU countries have difficulty agreeing between themselves, so how is their position stronger ? (since typically the agreed position -when there is one- is one that has been so degraded as to be acceptable to every country, meaning many other countries interests are not reflected)...

Its also quite a shameful matter that a number of EU countries sent forces for the illegal war in Iraq that was lead by a non EU country (the US).. Those include : the UK, Spain, Poland, Rumania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, the baltics, Hungary, netherlands, Italy, Portugal, Netherlands (and I may have forgotten some)... However the legal war curently being prosecuted in Mali by an EU founding member (France) has received very little support (a few dozen soldiers from the UK and .... Estonia) .

Finally it also seems strange that countries that funds the EU (mostly in western Europe) have to pay out billions of euros more to the EU than they receive from it and incur debt to do so (since most of these countries have had budget deficits for the past 40 years or so... in other words they are borrowing the money that they give to the EU)

Yet none of the pro EU candidates seem to be talking about such points....
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,618
Europix
This is a debatable argument in itself, but even if agreeing with the argument it raises another much bigger problem...... since they are not talking about any other achievement, does it mean THIS is the only one...
If it's true, then there's no need for anything else, it's more than enough.
 
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GogLais

Ad Honorem
Sep 2013
5,489
Wirral
Finally it also seems strange that countries that funds the EU (mostly in western Europe) have to pay out billions of euros more to the EU than they receive from it and incur debt to do so (since most of these countries have had budget deficits for the past 40 years or so... in other words they are borrowing the money that they give to the EU).
Well by definition the countries that fund the EU are going to pay out more than they receive. Countries raise money partly by taxation and partly by borrowing, you can’t say that the money they give to the EU is funded entirely by borrowing. Most developed countries divert money from richer areas to poorer, it’s not that strange that the EU does the same.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,034
Well by definition the countries that fund the EU are going to pay out more than they receive. Countries raise money partly by taxation and partly by borrowing, you can’t say that the money they give to the EU is funded entirely by borrowing. Most developed countries divert money from richer areas to poorer, it’s not that strange that the EU does the same.
It IS funded by borrowing since they do not have this money in the first place...

And here is a graph for the UK... Note how both gross and net contribution vary over time but generally increase faster than inflation




The UK's EU membership fee

Note how it is rather a challenge to find a full picture of contributions and receipts by country by year..... the EU does not volunteer it (not in simple form), which is a suspicious lack of transparency

here is the picture for France



In general when the EU had 12 states, the balance between payments and receipts was close to zero... Since the inclusion of 16 more states , the founding states have a significant and net loss... Clearly the system is now broken, and no one is looking to fix it (not the pro EU , not the anti EU who do not want to fix it, they just want to leave)...
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,034
Never understood this recurrent grief ("richest country have to contribute ... ").

It has as much logic as complaining that one has to break the egg for making an omlet.
How about if they break YOUR eggs to make THEIR omelett ?
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,034
If it's true, then there's no need for anything else, it's more than enough.
Latin America has twice the size of the whole of Europe, roughly the same population and their last interstate war was in 1935... They do not have an EU.....
 

GogLais

Ad Honorem
Sep 2013
5,489
Wirral
In general when the EU had 12 states, the balance between payments and receipts was close to zero... Since the inclusion of 16 more states , the founding states have a significant and net loss... Clearly the system is now broken, and no one is looking to fix it (not the pro EU , not the anti EU who do not want to fix it, they just want to leave)...
I assume the richer countries knew what they were doing when they allowed the poorer countries into the EU.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,034
I assume the richer countries knew what they were doing when they allowed the poorer countries into the EU.
Sure... those countries have shown time and again that they have near perfect knowledge of the future and were always able to plan well in advance any and all of their actions in an optimal way...
 
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