EP elections 2019

Do you plan to vote on the EP elections?


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Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
Still avoiding the point I see LOL

I'll try one more time - the EU budget is decided wholly at the EU level with no national Parliaments playing into this decision, such as my France/Germany example?
I'm not avoiding anything.

We were talking about the principle of a state. I gave You my understanding, that I believe it's fitting and democratic and non-democratic states.

If we introduce the national parliaments into equation as You did, based on that, Cuba or Saudi Arabia aren't states.

So, as I said, it's not at EU level but at member states level.

In UK, decisions on the budget are taken at the Government/Parliament level. It isn't the mayor of Birmingham and London that have the competence on the State budget.

It's why UK (although an "Union") is a state, while EU (although also an "Union") still isn't a state.
 
Aug 2009
5,444
Londinium
I'm not avoiding anything.

We were talking about the principle of a state. I gave You my understanding, that I believe it's fitting and democratic and non-democratic states.

If we introduce the national parliaments into equation as You did, based on that, Cuba or Saudi Arabia aren't states.

So, as I said, it's not at EU level but at member states level. .
Please stop mis-representing me – I introduced national Parliaments to demonstrate that the decisions on EU’s budget are not made in them – they are made at the EU level e.g. each national parliament does not decide how much they and others members should pay.

In UK, decisions on the budget are taken at the Government/Parliament level. It isn't the mayor of Birmingham and London that have the competence on the State budget.

It's why UK (although an "Union") is a state, while EU (although also an "Union") still isn't a state.
This is all I needed to here.

In the UK decisions are taken at the government/Parliament level when allocating funds within the UK from UK sources.

Similar to this, the EU allocations of funds are taken at the EU level when deciding how to spend funds received by the EU.

Do you know the saying “clutching at straws”? It perfectly illustrates what’s happening now by the pro-EU supporters, I would ask any independent/non-EU citizen to review this thread and witness the struggle I've had trying to have a simple debate!
 
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
Please stop mis-representing me ...
I don't. I simply explained You that we are discussing "state", not forms of governance:

– I introduced national Parliaments to demonstrate that the decisions on EU’s budget are not made in them – they are made at the EU level e.g. each national parliament does not decide how much they and others members should pay.
It doesn't matter if decisions are taken in parliament, government, crown council or whatever.

It matters who is sovereign in taking the decision. And that is member States (through it's PM, or Parliament or referendum or dictator). But not EU.

The EU budget is depending on national budgets, that are decided, like in any state, at the state level. Not EU level.


...
In the UK decisions are taken at the government/Parliament level when allocating funds within the UK from UK sources.
Exactly.

UK's state budget is decided at state level (UK government, UK parliament =>the UK state)

UK's budged isn't decided at the component parts level (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland), by those components/parts.

...Similar to this, the EU allocations of funds are taken at the EU level when deciding how to spend funds received by the EU.
No, it isn't similar.

Similar would be that the UK council, formed by the English, the Welsh, the Scottish and the North-Irish PM's are deciding what part of their national budgets (that England, Scotland, Wales, North-Ireland states are solely competent of, with UK having strictly no legal competences on them) will go financing the UK's budged, budget that UK will administrate accordingly to the frame the UK's council (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, that is) decided.


That isn't how the state UK is functioning, that isn't how any modern state I know is functioning.

(and that is even more obvious on the military sphere, it's also obvious in territory control and a couple of other domains).


Do you know the saying “clutching at straws”? It perfectly illustrates what’s happening now by the pro-EU supporters, ....
To be honest, I don't think it's “clutching at straws”. It's simple how EU is (mal) functioning.

...
I would ask any independent/non-EU citizen to review this thread and witness the struggle I've had trying to have a simple debate!
I would prefer any EU "outsider" not to witness the struggle but rather give his POV on "state".
 
Last edited:
Aug 2009
5,444
Londinium
I don't. I simply explained You that we are discussing "state", not forms of governance:



It doesn't matter if decisions are taken in parliament, government, crown council or whatever.

It matters who is sovereign in taking the decision. And that is member States, not EU.[



The EU budget is depending on national budgets, that are decided, like in any state, at the state level. Not EU level.
This is a contradiction, and quite an obvious one I'm surprised you missed. To confirm, where the decisions are taken is where sovereignty resides. If Person A can overrule and set new laws/decisions for person B, Person A hold the authority and sovereignty as Person B will always be subject to the decisions made by A. The EU is Person A, the provinces are B.

Member states, AFAIK, don't decide where the money is spent, correct? Member states don't set the EU budget, this comes from the EU, correct?

So the member states say how much they will contribute, they set the levvy, and this is accepted by the EU - OR - does the EU tell the member state the % (etc) they should contribute. Please answer this directly.

Exactly.

UK's state budget is decided at state level (UK government, UK parliament =>the UK state)

UK's budged isn't decided at the component parts level (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland), by those components/parts.
...this is what I've been saying, in this example the UK is the EU and England etc are the member states i.e. the budget is decided at the EU level not local level.

No, it isn't similar.

Similar would be that the UK council, formed by the English, the Welsh, the Scottish and the North-Irish PM's are deciding what part of their national budgets (that England, Scotland, Wales, North-Ireland states are solely competent of, with UK having strictly no legal competences on them) will go financing the UK's budged, budget that UK will administrate accordingly to the frame the UK's council (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, that is) decided.

That isn't how the state UK is functioning, that isn't how any modern state I know is functioning.

(and that is even more obvious on the military sphere, it's also obvious in territory control and a couple of other domains).

To be honest, I don't think it's “clutching at straws”. It's simple how EU is (mal) functioning.

I would prefer any EU "outsider" not to witness the struggle but rather give his POV on "state".
:(

The UK council you allude to is called Parliament (Westminster) i.e. the UK government allocates funding based on revenue (plus spending requirements etc) all of which is national. Anyway, we are talking about the EU and I think I've explained this enough times already!

If you would rather the outsider give an answer regarding a state, please answer my previous question; Germany is not a nation, and if it is, why? I've asked this several times and you seem to shy away, can you answer please?[/QUOTE]
 
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
Member states, AFAIK, don't decide where the money is spent, correct? Member states don't set the EU budget, this comes from the EU, correct?

So the member states say how much they will contribute, they set the levvy, and this is accepted by the EU - OR - does the EU tell the member state the % (etc) they should contribute. Please answer this directly.
directly:

-"Member states, AFAIK, don't decide where the money is spent, correct?"
-Yes and no: they decide the policies, the general frame, but they do not decide point by point.

"Member states don't set the EU budget, this comes from the EU, correct? "
- No. The member States are setting the EU budget.

*member states say how much they will contribute "
- Yes

"they set the levvy "
- Yes

"this is accepted by the EU "
- Yes

"does the EU tell the member state the % (etc) they should contribute"
- No


(quote)

" ... The EU budget is funded almost entirely by own resources.

The basic rules for the own resources system are laid down periodically in a Council Decision (currently 2014/335/EU, Euratom). This decision must be adopted unanimously by the EU Council and ratified by every Member State. (end of quote)

(nota bene: although EU council president and EU commission president are members of the EU council, they cannot vote; only country members can)

source: EU legislation

The Council's Decision still running (since 2014) is here, in full: EUR-Lex - 32014D0335 - EN - EUR-Lex
 
Aug 2009
5,444
Londinium
Nation is a totally different discussion, I've discussed upon in other threads quote extensively. I don't shy away. I simply do not think it's the moment nor the place for that. (same answer for Your question on country)
Ok, I'll try again; Germany is not a sovereign state.

I've asked this question a few times(3+) and this is 1st direct response I've had, so i wouldn't be so quick to claim you aren't shying away...
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,629
Clearaly the EU parliament in Brussels is NOT competent to set taxes for any EU member states. The national parliaments all do that – and it's empathically, ludicrously clear that is the case. The EU parliament does NOT function on the same basis a
Ok, I'll try again; Germany is not a sovereign state.

I've asked this question a few times(3+) and this is 1st direct response I've had, so i wouldn't be so quick to claim you aren't shying away...
Probably because it is a silly question?
 
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