EP elections 2019

Do you plan to vote on the EP elections?


  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .
Status
Closed

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,541
Londinium
directly:

-"Member states, AFAIK, don't decide where the money is spent, correct?"
-Yes and no: they decide the policies, the general frame, but they do not decide point by point.

"Member states don't set the EU budget, this comes from the EU, correct? "
- No. The member States are setting the EU budget.

*member states say how much they will contribute "
- Yes

"they set the levvy "
- Yes

"this is accepted by the EU "
- Yes

"does the EU tell the member state the % (etc) they should contribute"
- No


(quote)

" ... The EU budget is funded almost entirely by own resources.

The basic rules for the own resources system are laid down periodically in a Council Decision (currently 2014/335/EU, Euratom). This decision must be adopted unanimously by the EU Council and ratified by every Member State. (end of quote)

(nota bene: although EU council president and EU commission president are members of the EU council, they cannot vote; only country members can)

source: EU legislation

The Council's Decision still running (since 2014) is here, in full: EUR-Lex - 32014D0335 - EN - EUR-Lex

I'm saying that the entire process occurs at the EU level. This process does not occur at the member states level in individual parliaments but within EU institutions and to EU regulations or rules. The budget is set by the commission then goes through the council and parliament. At no point does an individual member state set the EU budget – this is my point, again.

Also, a member states contribution is based on their income (GNI based), this value as a percentage comes from the EU and not a member states saying “this year we will pay 0.7%”, as you state:

"does the EU tell the member state the % (etc) they should contribute"
- No

Budget of the European Union - Wikipedia

The GNI for own resource purposes[12] is calculated by National Statistical Institutes according to European law governing the sources and methods to compile GNI and the transmission of GNI data and related methodological information to the Commission (Eurostat).

*Note EUROPEAN Law and not national law or assemblies.

So you can claim I don’t understand how the EU functions – but that’s incorrect.

You can claim that the EU is a state, yet here we are – still no robust counter argument after all these pages. When any definitions are provided to counter my proposal, such as from Tulius (who has since left, aside from liking a post of yours) these only highlight the EU is indeed a sovereign state!
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,541
Londinium
Clearaly the EU parliament in Brussels is NOT competent to set taxes for any EU member states. The national parliaments all do that – and it's empathically, ludicrously clear that is the case. The EU parliament does NOT function on the same basis a
Never my point - the EU sets the budget for the EU and not member states.

Probably because it is a silly question?
Exactly!!!!!!!

It is such an obvious answer - we all know what is/is not a state, we can all understand and recognize the fundamental aspects of statehood. Yet it would seem those who support the EU suddenly loose this ability when turning towards the EU. All I want is for the EU to be judged as the EU acts – a state.

When trying to demonstrate this with an example (Germany isn’t a state, prove me wrong) it gets ignored or dismissed, as you’ve done above, rather than responded to.

Why is this? Because as they know, I can directly apply whatever reasoning of German statehood is provided onto the EU and therefore they are forced to accept that they do in fact live in an EU province, or at least they are confronted with an uncomfortable truth regarding their own nation/state/country
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,938
Exactly!!!!!!!

It is such an obvious answer - we all know what is/is not a state, we can all understand and recognize the fundamental aspects of statehood. Yet it would seem those who support the EU suddenly loose this ability when turning towards the EU. All I want is for the EU to be judged as the EU acts – a state.

When trying to demonstrate this with an example (Germany isn’t a state, prove me wrong) it gets ignored or dismissed, as you’ve done above, rather than responded to.

Why is this? Because as they know, I can directly apply whatever reasoning of German statehood is provided onto the EU and therefore they are forced to accept that they do in fact live in an EU province, or at least they are confronted with an uncomfortable truth regarding their own nation/state/country
Sounds like the old chestnut of what separates a language from a dialect.

Or using another old chestnut from history: the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman or an empire.

There really isn't any kind of political entity that resembles the EU. It's the EU. You're trying to conceptually shove it into a procrustian bed designed mostly for nation states – in order to be able to call it a state.

I assume a direct political interest in this on your part?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lalli

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,675
Europix
Never my point - the EU sets the budget for the EU and not member states.
Nope.


...


Exactly!!!!!!!


It is such an obvious answer - we all know what is/is not a state, we can all understand and recognize the fundamental aspects of statehood. Yet it would seem those who support the EU suddenly loose this ability when turning towards the EU. All I want is for the EU to be judged as the EU acts – a state.


When trying to demonstrate this with an example (Germany isn’t a state, prove me wrong) it gets ignored or dismissed, as you’ve done above, rather than responded to.


Why is this? Because as they know, I can directly apply whatever reasoning of German statehood is provided onto the EU and therefore they are forced to accept that they do in fact live in an EU province, or at least they are confronted with an uncomfortable truth regarding their own nation/state/country

Let's have it Your way, and take Germany (and it's a good State to take as comparison as it's a federal state, with constituting parts (Länder) having extensive autonomy and political & administrative competences.


- Is the German federal state competent for the federal budget or the Länder are?


- Is the German federal state's budget consisting of the contribution from Länder budgets, budgets being of the exclusive competence of Länder, contribution to the federal budget decided by Länder, on criteria decided by Länder?


- Is the federal state competent for the territorial control (immigration policy, access to the territory, nationality, conditions of establishment, terms of extradition, etc) or the Länder?


- Can the Länder have diplomatic embassies that give entry visa to the Länder territory?


- Is the Federal state deprived of the competence of giving entry Visas on German territory?


- Is the federal state competent on the state defense/army (structure, command, financing) or are the Länder competent on the Länder defence/army?


- Is there a Länder nationality or a German nationality? Is the existing Länder nationality impeaching a national of one Land to enroll in other's Land' armed or law inforcement forces, in the juridical system (judge/attorney/etc)?


It can continue but I'll stop the list here. Answering only to those would be enough, IMO.
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,541
Londinium
Sounds like the old chestnut of what separates a language from a dialect.

Or using another old chestnut from history: the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman or an empire.

There really isn't any kind of political entity that resembles the EU. It's the EU. You're trying to conceptually shove it into a procrustian bed designed mostly for nation states – in order to be able to call it a state.

I assume a direct political interest in this on your part?
This semantics game wont work - we aren't talking about some abstract entity, a theoretical discussion point.

Well of course I'm interested! The EU (currently) makes laws which impact my life, even if a specific law does not directly effect me, the EU still hold the same attributes and actions of a state, and therefore has earned my interest.

Do you have a direct political interest in the legislature and judiciary that have the means to govern the laws you live by?
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,541
Londinium
Nope.





Let's have it Your way, and take Germany (and it's a good State to take as comparison as it's a federal state, with constituting parts (Länder) having extensive autonomy and political & administrative competences.


- Is the German federal state competent for the federal budget or the Länder are?


- Is the German federal state's budget consisting of the contribution from Länder budgets, budgets being of the exclusive competence of Länder, contribution to the federal budget decided by Länder, on criteria decided by Länder?


- Is the federal state competent for the territorial control (immigration policy, access to the territory, nationality, conditions of establishment, terms of extradition, etc) or the Länder?


- Can the Länder have diplomatic embassies that give entry visa to the Länder territory?


- Is the Federal state deprived of the competence of giving entry Visas on German territory?


- Is the federal state competent on the state defense/army (structure, command, financing) or are the Länder competent on the Länder defence/army?


- Is there a Länder nationality or a German nationality? Is the existing Länder nationality impeaching a national of one Land to enroll in other's Land' armed or law inforcement forces, in the juridical system (judge/attorney/etc)?


It can continue but I'll stop the list here. Answering only to those would be enough, IMO.
You can't answer 1 question with 7 questions...looks like your hiding from something, or do you not understand the question.

Germany is not a state, if you think it is, show me what attributes make it such - ideally your response will be supported with reputable sources...still waiting for an answer....
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,675
Europix
You're trying to conceptually shove it into a procrustian bed designed mostly for nation states –
I'll add a small thing: US isn't exactly a classic nation-state (and comparison doesn't stand either), Switzerland isn't either (again, comparison doesn't stand), Chinese concept is of China being a civilization-state, not a nation-state (and again, comparison doesn't stand).
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,541
Londinium
I'll add a small thing: US isn't exactly a classic nation-state (and comparison doesn't stand either), Switzerland isn't either (again, comparison doesn't stand), Chinese concept is of China being a civilization-state, not a nation-state (and again, comparison doesn't stand).
Fine - I hold that China, the US and Switzerland are not, in any way (like the EU), a sovereign state - pick one and see if you can argue they are a state without that definition landing squarely on top of the EU. Or do you believe that none of those 3No places listed are sovereign states?
 
Oct 2012
871
You can't answer 1 question with 7 questions...looks like your hiding from something, or do you not understand the question.

Germany is not a state, if you think it is, show me what attributes make it such - ideally your response will be supported with reputable sources...still waiting for an answer....
"A state may observe international conventions and rules but no outside power or organization can compel their observance. "
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,541
Londinium
"A state may observe international conventions and rules but no outside power or organization can compel their observance. "
Not an answer to my question, and no link provided (unless that was your own thoughts on the matter?).

However, I shall respond anyway....The EU observes internal conventions and rules, such as those agreed to within various trade deals + the Iran Nuke deal.
 
Status
Closed