EP elections 2019

Do you plan to vote on the EP elections?


  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .
Status
Closed
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
You can't answer 1 question with 7 questions...looks like your hiding from something, or do you not understand the question.

Germany is not a state, if you think it is, show me what attributes make it such - ideally your response will be supported with reputable sources...still waiting for an answer....
No, my friend.

You repeatedly said EU is a state, as state "x" or "y". I showed it is not a State like, US, like UK, like Germany. I can continue.

Your assertion on EU being a state isn't standing nor using the definition of the State concept You furnished, nor the definition I furnished.

You brought up a couple of arguments that are dismissed by reality.

You cannot deny aspects, You cannot missinterpret or ignore aspects (be it directly or in comparison) when they doesn't fit or counter Your theory (its, how Larry said, a procustian argumentation).

What You can do is to bring up, to present and argument a definition of the concept of State in which EU fits in.

As the "State" is a human created, invented concept, it's possible and acceptable to bring Your conception. And I am open to that.

But again, at this stage of argumentation, it simply doesn't fit.

_______
PS: I did responded You when You asked, point by point, with just yes and no where possible, and providing the original sources ...
 
Last edited:
Likes: Gvelion
Oct 2012
671
Not an answer to my question, and no link provided (unless that was your own thoughts on the matter?).

However, I shall respond anyway....The EU observes internal conventions and rules, such as those agreed to within various trade deals + the Iran Nuke deal.
Something I have read, couldn`t find a link or source so lets take it as my own toughts.
The question is if EU can compel Germany to follow and obay its rules and regulations. If so, I agree, Germany is not a state.
 
Aug 2009
5,443
Londinium
Something I have read, couldn`t find a link or source so lets take it as my own toughts.
The question is if EU can compel Germany to follow and obay its rules and regulations. If so, I agree, Germany is not a state.
EU law must be incorporated into the member states statute within 3 years of it passing, this is not reciprocal; the EU has the mechanism to compel any member state to adopt their rulings. Similar to this is the recent Polish case regarding acepting of migrants where the EU (i.e. Germany) set the quota and then Poland refused. IIRC this case is still on-going but the Province of Poland was fined for not following EU requirements.

So if Germany is not a state, where do their state functions take place?!
 
Aug 2009
5,443
Londinium
No, my friend.

You repeatedly said EU is a state, as state "x" or "y". I showed it is not a State like, US, like UK, like Germany. I can continue.

Your assertion on EU being a state isn't standing nor using the definition of the State concept You furnished, nor the definition I furnished.

You brought up a couple of arguments that are dismissed by reality.

You cannot deny aspects, You cannot missinterpret or ignore aspects (be it directly or in comparison) when they doesn't fit or counter Your theory (its, how Larry said, a procustian argumentation).

What You can do is to bring up, to present and argument a definition of the concept of State in which EU fits in.

As the "State" is a human created, invented concept, it's possible and acceptable to bring Your conception. And I am open to that.

But again, at this stage of argumentation, it simply doesn't fit.

_______
PS: I did responded You when You asked, point by point, with just yes and no where possible, and providing the original sources ...

None of my arguments or points have been dismissed, and certainly not by “reality” (which seem exceptionally loose in the EU provinces)– please show me where..

I’m saying the EU is a state. I’ve previously said there is a huge variety of what form that takes – BUT we can all recognize when something is a state or not. A constitutional monarchy, a federal republic or the mess that is the EU are all forms that a state can take.

I’m really getting fed up with debating you – how many pages has it been now? How long did it take to get half an answer to a simple question of if Germany is a state!!!

The result I’m left with is that EU supporters are willfully ignoring what they know the constituent parts/building blocks of a state are when it’s applied to the EU.

Every key aspect of a state I’ve been presented with; the opinions and semantics; all underline that the EU is a state. I mean, if the UN definition wont do, if the comparison with other nations (even member states) don’t register, if those definitions presented by Tulius are ignored – tell me what I need to do?!
 
Oct 2012
671
EU law must be incorporated into the member states statute within 3 years of it passing, this is not reciprocal; the EU has the mechanism to compel any member state to adopt their rulings. Similar to this is the recent Polish case regarding acepting of migrants where the EU (i.e. Germany) set the quota and then Poland refused. IIRC this case is still on-going but the Province of Poland was fined for not following EU requirements.

So if Germany is not a state, where do their state functions take place?!
EU is just an international organisation, you don`t have to follow the rules if you choose not to and you don`t have to be a member if you choose not to be. If two or more states make a agreement to follow some common rules, does that mean they are not sates anymore?
 
Aug 2009
5,443
Londinium
EU is just an international organisation, you don`t have to follow the rules if you choose not to and you don`t have to be a member if you choose not to be. If two or more states make a agreement to follow some common rules, does that mean they are not sates anymore?
Your 2 state comparison would only hold if one state decided for the other and this was not reciprocal, in which case there is a clearly a sovereign/executive member and a subordinate. This is quite basic stuff.

The states - without national referendums taking place (aside from the UK) - chose to enter the EEU, later becoming the EU (aside from e.European) - State we are currently discussing. Perhaps the whole EU should hold an in/out ref. and then I can agree with your point, well half of it.

You seemed to have ignore my question, not a surprise for this thread LOL - I'll re-post again:

EU law must be incorporated into the member states statute within 3 years of it passing, this is not reciprocal; the EU has the mechanism to compel any member state to adopt their rulings. Similar to this is the recent Polish case regarding acepting of migrants where the EU (i.e. Germany) set the quota and then Poland refused. IIRC this case is still on-going but the Province of Poland was fined for not following EU requirements.

So if Germany is not a state, where do their state functions take place?!
 
Oct 2012
671
Your 2 state comparison would only hold if one state decided for the other and this was not reciprocal, in which case there is a clearly a sovereign/executive member and a subordinate. This is quite basic stuff.

The states - without national referendums taking place (aside from the UK) - chose to enter the EEU, later becoming the EU (aside from e.European) - State we are currently discussing. Perhaps the whole EU should hold an in/out ref. and then I can agree with your point, well half of it.

You seemed to have ignore my question, not a surprise for this thread LOL - I'll re-post again:

EU law must be incorporated into the member states statute within 3 years of it passing, this is not reciprocal; the EU has the mechanism to compel any member state to adopt their rulings. Similar to this is the recent Polish case regarding acepting of migrants where the EU (i.e. Germany) set the quota and then Poland refused. IIRC this case is still on-going but the Province of Poland was fined for not following EU requirements.

So if Germany is not a state, where do their state functions take place?!
Germany is a state and their state functions take place in Berlin. It is in Berlin where any EU laws are or are not incorporated in Greman legistation. In the end EU have no means to compel the individual states.
 
Jan 2014
2,571
Westmorland
And they all promised us they were in favour of Brexit. Well, their real position has become clear, and that is why the Brexit party is doing well.

Oh, Britain will leave. The next PM will see to that.

At least one candidate has said he will suspend Parliament if necessary too stop them preventing a no-deal Brexit. Hopefully, more of them will consider that option.
They won't, but they won't need to.

You'll get your Brexit, whether or not Boris becomes PM. Parliament is not going to prevent Brexit, even if it tries to stop a no deal Brexit.

Just to be clear though, this conflation of hard or no deal Brexit with the 'will of the people' is a falsehood. We were simply asked if we wanted to leave the EU. Even at the time, we were assured by the Leave side that the EU would fall over itself to give us a wonderful deal because they couldn't possibly do without us. Anyone who queried that was just dismissed as promoting 'Project Fear'. Leave did a great job of calming nerves and silencing opposition through these tactics, but that doesn't mean that what they said was actually true. As time is now showing, much of what they said was not true. The EU has not bowed to our wishes or demands. So now, because we couldn't possibly admit that we were lied to, we have to come up with convoluted reasons to blame the EU for refusing to negotiate, which is really shorthand for 'refusing to give us what the Leavers assured us they would be only too happy to give us'.

We need to take some responsibility here. We 'called this on' as Danny Dyer would say. Our country is hideously divided. The Tory party look as though they are going to put saving their own hides above the interests of the country by electing the most divisive of the leadership candidates just because he can stop Farage. That will make things worse.

Worse still, we the people are all falling out with each other. Leave is very vocal on social media and on Historum and our overseas friends might be forgiven for thinking we all share the same views. We really don't. Moderate voices get drowned out, but you know as well as I that 'the people' were divided on that vote, even when no-one had any inkling that a no deal Brexit was even possible. It was 52: 48. You won, I get that. I'm not arguing for a second referendum because I don't want one. But do not presume to assume that the 52% all share your views on the desirability of undermining parliamentary democracy - one thing we have which really should be the envy of the world - just to scratch some ideological itch and deliver a no deal Brexit.
 
Likes: GogLais

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,629
This semantics game wont work - we aren't talking about some abstract entity, a theoretical discussion point.

Well of course I'm interested! The EU (currently) makes laws which impact my life, even if a specific law does not directly effect me, the EU still hold the same attributes and actions of a state, and therefore has earned my interest.

Do you have a direct political interest in the legislature and judiciary that have the means to govern the laws you live by?
But you're the one doing the semantics. The EU is the EU. There are no perfect analogies, but the analogy of the-EU-as-a-state-like-Germany just isn't very good.
 
Status
Closed