EP elections 2019

Do you plan to vote on the EP elections?


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    47
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
Every key aspect of a state I’ve been presented with; the opinions and semantics; all underline that the EU is a state.
Errr, no, not every key aspect.

1. Territory
2. Military
3. Population
4. Currency


You didn't addressed any of those.

IDK if You consider them as "key aspects of a state" as You didn't referred to them. If You don't consider them key aspects, I would be grateful if You would say it. It would clarify a lot the discussion for me.
 
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GogLais

Ad Honorem
Sep 2013
5,470
Wirral
They won't, but they won't need to.

You'll get your Brexit, whether or not Boris becomes PM. Parliament is not going to prevent Brexit, even if it tries to stop a no deal Brexit.

Just to be clear though, this conflation of hard or no deal Brexit with the 'will of the people' is a falsehood. We were simply asked if we wanted to leave the EU. Even at the time, we were assured by the Leave side that the EU would fall over itself to give us a wonderful deal because they couldn't possibly do without us. Anyone who queried that was just dismissed as promoting 'Project Fear'. Leave did a great job of calming nerves and silencing opposition through these tactics, but that doesn't mean that what they said was actually true. As time is now showing, much of what they said was not true. The EU has not bowed to our wishes or demands. So now, because we couldn't possibly admit that we were lied to, we have to come up with convoluted reasons to blame the EU for refusing to negotiate, which is really shorthand for 'refusing to give us what the Leavers assured us they would be only too happy to give us'.

We need to take some responsibility here. We 'called this on' as Danny Dyer would say. Our country is hideously divided. The Tory party look as though they are going to put saving their own hides above the interests of the country by electing the most divisive of the leadership candidates just because he can stop Farage. That will make things worse.

Worse still, we the people are all falling out with each other. Leave is very vocal on social media and on Historum and our overseas friends might be forgiven for thinking we all share the same views. We really don't. Moderate voices get drowned out, but you know as well as I that 'the people' were divided on that vote, even when no-one had any inkling that a no deal Brexit was even possible. It was 52: 48. You won, I get that. I'm not arguing for a second referendum because I don't want one. But do not presume to assume that the 52% all share your views on the desirability of undermining parliamentary democracy - one thing we have which really should be the envy of the world - just to scratch some ideological itch and deliver a no deal Brexit.
At the risk of being excessively partisan I am comforted by the relative lack of success of the Brexit Party. For all the hype its share of the vote in the EU Parliament elections and in the Peterborough by-election were about 30% in pretty well ideal circumstances for them. It just demonstrates what we all know, that about a third of the population are enthusiasts for Brexit who have no worries about no deal, a third who wish for another referendum or some other way of overturning the original decision and the rest of us in the middle. Some of the last third voted to remain, some to leave but they wish to keep some link with the EU. Whether or not it’s a state.
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
We need to take some responsibility here.
I'd say, yes.

1. The EU can only take act of and agree to UK's decision to leave. EU can't stop a member to leave, nor force a member to leave.

2. The EU can only negotiate a deal or accept a deal, both versions remaining UK's decision. EU can't force UK to negotiate as it can't force UK to not negotiate.

3. Until the Brexit is not agreed and signed by both parties (which is still the case), UK can communicate EU that it will no longer leave, but remain a country member. As if last two years had never existed. EU can't opose that either.


Whatever variant, it remains at UK's sole decision.
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,483
Londinium
But you're the one doing the semantics. The EU is the EU. There are no perfect analogies, but the analogy of the-EU-as-a-state-like-Germany just isn't very good.
Once again - The EU has all the functions and attributes that would qualify it to be a state, a modern state as we would both understand the term and inline with all international understanding/framework/law/ usage of the term. I have not played semantics.

It is the EU supporters who demand their precious is raised above all else - their ideological project is separated from the rest of human society, the EU isn't the EU - it's the EU because its the EU and there's nothing like the EU; this is the argument I'm met with.
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,483
Londinium
Errr, no, not every key aspect.

1. Territory
2. Military
3. Population
4. Currency


You didn't addressed any of those.

IDK if You consider them as "key aspects of a state" as You didn't referred to them. If You don't consider them key aspects, I would be grateful if You would say it. It would clarify a lot the discussion for me.
Territorial boundaries and permanent population have been discussed already, so has currency within this thread. Military command has been discussed a specific thread (search for it) and during our own conversations in other threads.

Do you agree that the EU's borders are defined with a permanent population?

The EU has a mechanism in place for a central currency, and is used already, as you know.

The EU already has a central command structure (having been deployed in Afghan. and a few other places). As we both know already, the EU is actively working towards a central military force.

------------

Whats next that we have not already discussed - what do i need to show you that you've already seen to understand you live in a state called the EU?
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,483
Londinium
@Tulius could you respond to my post a few pages back regarding the link you provided and how I understood the EU to qualify as a sovereign state? (if you're still in this thread?)
 

Peter Graham

Ad Honorem
Jan 2014
2,637
Westmorland
At the risk of being excessively partisan I am comforted by the relative lack of success of the Brexit Party. For all the hype its share of the vote in the EU Parliament elections and in the Peterborough by-election were about 30% in pretty well ideal circumstances for them. It just demonstrates what we all know, that about a third of the population are enthusiasts for Brexit who have no worries about no deal, a third who wish for another referendum or some other way of overturning the original decision and the rest of us in the middle. Some of the last third voted to remain, some to leave but they wish to keep some link with the EU. Whether or not it’s a state.
Some (or many) of the 30% who voted for Brexit probably still cling to this notion that we can still have everything we want and that the EU will blink first when it comes to it. To a degree, they might have a point (personally, I think we have a few more twists and turns to come on the negotiations), so it might well not be the case that the 30% are all relaxed about a no-deal. They just don't think it'll come to that, especially if we vote for a strong man who'll call their bluff
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
Military command has been discussed a specific thread (search for it) and during our own conversations in other threads.
You don't need to listen to what I say. Take rather primary sources as starting point:




Article 42

(ex Article 17 TEU)



1. The common security and defence policy shall be an integral part of the common foreign and security policy. It shall provide the Union with an operational capacity drawing on civilian and military assets. The Union may use them on missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter. The performance of these tasks shall be undertaken using capabilities provided by the Member States.

2. The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

The policy of the Union in accordance with this Section shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States and shall respect the obligations of certain Member States, which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), under the North Atlantic Treaty and be compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework.

3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy.

Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities. The Agency in the field of defence capabilities development, research, acquisition and armaments (hereinafter referred to as "the European Defence Agency") shall identify operational requirements, shall promote measures to satisfy those requirements, shall contribute to identifying and, where appropriate, implementing any measure needed to strengthen the industrial and technological base of the defence sector, shall participate in defining a European capabilities and armaments policy, and shall assist the Council in evaluating the improvement of military capabilities.

4. Decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those initiating a mission as referred to in this Article, shall be adopted by the Council acting unanimously on a proposal from the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy or an initiative from a Member State. The High Representative may propose the use of both national resources and Union instruments, together with the Commission where appropriate.

5. The Council may entrust the execution of a task, within the Union framework, to a group of Member States in order to protect the Union's values and serve its interests. The execution of such a task shall be governed by Article 44.

6. Those Member States whose military capabilities fulfil higher criteria and which have made more binding commitments to one another in this area with a view to the most demanding missions shall establish permanent structured cooperation within the Union framework. Such cooperation shall be governed by Article 46. It shall not affect the provisions of Article 43.

7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.

Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation. ...



* * *


The European Defence Agency was established under a Joint Action of the Council of Ministers on 12 July, 2004, "to support the Member States and the Council in their effort to improve European defence capabilities in the field of crisis management and to sustain the European Security and Defence Policy as it stands now and develops in the future”.

To implement the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty (Art.42 TEU), this Joint Action was first replaced by a Council Decision on 12 July 2011 which was revised by Council decision (CFSP) 2015/1835 of 12 October 2015 on the statute, seat and operational rules of the EDA. ...

source: Mission

* * *

The Council decision 2915/1835 is here, in full: https://www.eda.europa.eu/docs/default-source/documents/eda-council-decision-2015-1835-dated-13-10-2015.pdf



Please pick the Constitution/legal text concerning the defense of any State You like and consider as "state" and compare yourself.
 
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