Eurocentric revisionism?

dreamregent

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
4,354
Coastal Florida
I asked him to give me concrete examples of "Eurocentric revisionism similar to modern Afrocentrism", because I don't see it.

The examples he gave were not satisfying because most of the time it was in the context of the 19th century, when it was justified, by the simple fact that people arrived to those conclusions because of a lack of modern data(like DNA), and not because they were vicious, racist and narcissistic with inferiority complex. Other examples he gave were not satisfying because they were supported by very niche groups, and not on a massive scale similar to that of Afrocentrism today.

Is anyone here able to show a few concrete examples of "Eurocentric revisionism" in history?
I'm not going to spend hours producing records showing this. However, I will provide you with an example, a pamphlet of a printed speech distributed in 1954 by a Citizens' Council, a virulently racist organization in the U.S., following the Brown v. BOE school desegregation case. In A Review of Black Monday, pgs. 2-3, the speaker defines the area historically occupied by the "white race" to include all of Europe to the Ural Mountains, all of what we would generally consider the Near and Middle East today as well as northeastern Africa. Within this passage, he comments specifically on how "white" Ancient Egyptians were:
These migrations and the ebbing and flowing of these various races took place. A part of this trek went into Egypt, and there, below the first cataract, along the Nile there, these white men went and lived, and for 35 dynasties they controlled Egypt. The civilization of Egypt was a white civilization. Cleopatra was a white woman. It was only in the 26th dynasty, when Taharka went upon the throne that the, gradual seepage of the negroid blood into the white blood, which had come from the northwest quadrant, became complete. The white men built the pyramids, the beautiful architectural Temple of Karnak and the sphinx.
And where did he get these ideas? Why, none other than one of the most celebrated western archaeologists in history, James Henry Breasted. In one of his tomes, The Conquest of Civilization (pgs. 44-45), Breasted explicitly claimed the Ancient peoples of Pharaonic Egypt represented the southern extent of white civilization. He claimed that "small groups" of black people may have "wandered" into Ancient Egypt from time to time but they were almost completely hemmed in by what was considered an uncrossable barrier for them, the Sahara Desert (but not uncrossable for white people, apparently). Hence, he deemed it impossible that black people made any appreciable contribution to white Egyptian civilization.

This is a very bald example of what's known as the Dynastic Race Theory. I'm not sure I can think of a better example of racial and ethnic appropriation clearly rooted in racism. I'm not arguing for an Afrocentric view of Ancient Egypt but the idea these people were all "white" and there were no black people is nutty. If you go to Egypt today, you'll find a lot of "black" people, particularly in the southern half of Egypt. There's no reason to think it was any different in ancient times.
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,046
Portugal
I'm not going to spend hours producing records showing this. However, I will provide you with an example, a pamphlet of a printed speech distributed in 1954 by a Citizens' Council, a virulently racist organization in the U.S., following the Brown v. BOE school desegregation case. In A Review of Black Monday, pgs. 2-3, the speaker defines the area historically occupied by the "white race" to include all of Europe to the Ural Mountains, all of what we would generally consider the Near and Middle East today as well as northeastern Africa. Within this passage, he comments specifically on how "white" Ancient Egyptians were:

And where did he get these ideas? Why, none other than one of the most celebrated western archaeologists in history, James Henry Breasted. In one of his tomes, The Conquest of Civilization (pgs. 44-45), Breasted explicitly claimed the Ancient peoples of Pharaonic Egypt represented the southern extent of white civilization. He claimed that small groups of black people may have wandered into Ancient Egypt from the African interior but they were almost completely hemmed in by what was considered an uncrossable barrier for them, the Sahara. Hence, he assumed black people couldn't have made any appreciable contribution to white Egyptian civilization.

I'm not sure I can think of a better example of racial and ethnic appropriation clearly rooted in racism.
Although the examples that you point can and some should be rooted as racist, and even as Eurocentric, we should note that the concept of whiteness changed in time and in regions. For instance the Portuguese in the expansion often wrote that the Chinese were white, that some of the Indians (from America) were white, among others. A person can be considered a white in a country and not that white in other. So it doesn’t surprise me to see that some may say that the Ancient Egyptians were white, even if that is a bit more surprising from a racist organization.

But in a not that much wider concept of “white”, abstracting from the terminology “white race”, Europe and the Middle East, were areas historically occupied by “whites”. By the way, you underlined the part that “Cleopatra was a white woman”. Wasn’t she Greek/Macedonian? How is saying that Eurocentrism?
 
Mar 2019
1,766
KL
Ashoka maurya, unfortunately, I would have to disagree with you about the Aryans. The theory about the destruction of the Harappan Civilization by invasion has not been supported for a while now but the Migration theory is certainly the most supported by evidence today.
and what evidences are you even talking about, i used to believe in aryan migration theory as we all read it in several colonial era history lessons on south asia in our school books, but then as one learn more and more about this scenario, common sense starts challenging this BS theory, it becomes more and more ridiculous, im sure the aryan migration believers themselves have no iota of understanding what BS they themselves believe it. Linguistic theories aside, the archaeology has completely and utterly debunked any such scenario, i hope you go and read some basic archaeological statements made by scholars such as JM kenoyer who is really active in IVC research. AMT came into being even before IVC was excavated, so there was no ''evidence'' to begin with and thats why its just a theory or infarct hypothesis at best.

regards
 
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dreamregent

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
4,354
Coastal Florida
By the way, you underlined the part that “Cleopatra was a white woman”. Wasn’t she Greek/Macedonian? How is saying that Eurocentrism?
The Ptolemies ruled for nearly 300 years. The idea they managed to keep their blood purely Greek over that period is pretty far-fetched.
 

dreamregent

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
4,354
Coastal Florida
Although the examples that you point can and some should be rooted as racist, and even as Eurocentric, we should note that the concept of whiteness changed in time and in regions. For instance the Portuguese in the expansion often wrote that the Chinese were white, that some of the Indians (from America) were white, among others. A person can be considered a white in a country and not that white in other. So it doesn’t surprise me to see that some may say that the Ancient Egyptians were white, even if that is a bit more surprising from a racist organization.
The problem is that, from the archaeology, we know the Egyptians were aware of things like the variance of skin shades and hair styles/textures. I think Breasted wanted to believe these people were white because he, along with just about everyone else at the time, thought white people were superior and only they were capable of creating the most beautiful art and architecture in ancient times.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,046
Portugal
The Ptolemies ruled for nearly 300 years. The idea they managed to keep their blood purely Greek over that period is pretty far-fetched.
Not that much, when we consider the Ptolemy’s levels of endogamy, not only the incest among the royal family, but also social endogamy among the Greek/Macedonian community in Egypt, when we consider that there is no source to comment her eventual lack of her whiteness among the Greek and Roman historians, and even less far-fetched if we consider that the Egyptians were “white”.

Even today in the USA, a society that underlines much racial issues, it seems that the “White Americans are Americans who are descendants from any of the white racial groups of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa or in census statistics, those who self-report as white based on having majority-white ancestry.” (quoted from: White Americans - Wikipedia)

I recall a sentence from a former Brazilian president: "just look at me to see that white in Brazil is a relative concept" I would add that is not only in Brazil. Again that concept of “white” changed much in time and from region to region.

On the other hand when the Scottish Livingstone found the Portuguese Silva Porto in the “middle” of Africa, he called him half-breed to mantain the claim that he was the first white to arrive there.

The problem is that, from the archaeology, we know the Egyptians were aware of things like the variance of skin shades and hair styles/textures. I think Breasted wanted to believe these people were white because he, along with just about everyone else at the time, thought white people were superior and only they were capable of creating the most beautiful art and architecture in ancient times.
I don''t know Breasted, so I won't comment, my comment was more directed to the first part of your post.
 
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dreamregent

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
4,354
Coastal Florida
Not that much, when we consider the Ptolemy’s levels of endogamy, not only the incest among the royal family, but also social endogamy among the Greek/Macedonian community in Egypt, when we consider that there is no source to comment her eventual lack of her whiteness among the Greek and Roman historians, and even less far-fetched if we consider that the Egyptians were “white”.
The Pharaohs of Egypt often married their sisters as well...but I don't think they managed to keep it all in the family either. That would be an interesting experiment though: a 300 year test to see how long genetic viability lasts when parentage is strictly limited to an unbroken line of brother-sister pairs. I'm skeptical that would end in anything aside from a mess.

Even today in the USA, a society that underlines much racial issues, it seems that the “White Americans are Americans who are descendants from any of the white racial groups of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa or in census statistics, those who self-report as white based on having majority-white ancestry.” (quoted from: White Americans - Wikipedia)

I recall a sentence from a former Brazilian president: "just look at me to see that white in Brazil is a relative concept" I would add that is not only in Brazil. Again that concept of “white” changed much in time and from region to region.

On the other hand when the Scottish Livingstone found the Portuguese Silva Porto in the “middle” of Africa, he called him half-breed to mantain the claim that he was the first white to arrive there.
I don't see the relevance of any of this. When Breasted was digging in Egypt, he couldn't have avoided seeing a large "black" population. However, he appears to have thought none of their ancestors were present when the "beautiful things" were built. On what basis do you think he predicated such an assumption?
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,046
Portugal
The Pharaohs of Egypt often married their sisters as well...but I don't think they managed to keep it all in the family either. That would be an interesting experiment though: a 300 year test to see how long genetic viability lasts when parentage is strictly limited to an unbroken line of brother-sister pairs. I'm skeptical that would end in anything aside from a mess.
I agree with you here. And I hope you did read all my post an not just the “incest” part. It was a small, even if relevant, part of it.

I don't see the relevance of any of this. When Breasted was digging in Egypt, he couldn't have avoided seeing a large "black" population. However, he appears to have thought none of their ancestors were present when the "beautiful things" were built. On what basis do you think he predicated such an assumption?
Eventually or probably on racism. I said that I don’t know Breasted, even if you said that he is among the most celebrated western archaeologists – so pardon my ignorance here, and I said that I didn’t commented that specific part. But again that wasn’t really my point. My point was that the concept of “white” and “whiteness” is quite variable, yesterday and today. As such I gave some examples distant in time.

So as in Brazil raising economic status turns socially the skin more white, for Breasted having excavated a “beautiful thing” turned its builders skin more white that it really was.

But the case of Egypt, the Hebrews, the Phoenicians and in general the civilizations of the “Fertile Crescent” are rarely a case of Eurocentrism. They aren’t even in Europe! It is much more correct to say that often they are cases of Mediterraneocentrism.

In the sequence of one of my previous posts it is paradoxical that a historian that promotes Ancient Egypt isn’t seen as Afrocentrist if he states that there were some “white” people there, even if those white are not much white to the eyes of some.

Good examples of Eurocentrism, and this is an opinion now, are usually the ones that promote the concept of good imperialism, and good colonizers that saved the poor retarded savages from their barbaric practices.
 

dreamregent

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
4,354
Coastal Florida
Eventually or probably on racism. I said that I don’t know Breasted, even if you said that he is among the most celebrated western archaeologists – so pardon my ignorance here, and I said that I didn’t commented that specific part. But again that wasn’t really my point. My point was that the concept of “white” and “whiteness” is quite variable, yesterday and today. As such I gave some examples distant in time.

So as in Brazil raising economic status turns socially the skin more white, for Breasted having excavated a “beautiful thing” turned its builders skin more white that it really was.

But the case of Egypt, the Hebrews, the Phoenicians and in general the civilizations of the “Fertile Crescent” are rarely a case of Eurocentrism. They aren’t even in Europe! It is much more correct to say that often they are cases of Mediterraneocentrism.

In the sequence of one of my previous posts it is paradoxical that a historian that promotes Ancient Egypt isn’t seen as Afrocentrist if he states that there were some “white” people there, even if those white are not much white to the eyes of some.

Good examples of Eurocentrism, and this is an opinion now, are usually the ones that promote the concept of good imperialism, and good colonizers that saved the poor retarded savages from their barbaric practices.
You seem to be equating the actions of James Breasted with self-identification today. I don't think these are analogous examples. To me, it's the very epitome of white eurocentrism and cultural appropriation to travel to the Middle East and declare all the lighter-shaded people to be white. In particular, Ancient Egyptians broadly viewed themselves and their culture as being superior to everyone else merely because they were Egyptian. There's little question they'd respond negatively to being compared to northern Europeans on any level.