Europe and Migrations

Oct 2010
4,899
DC
Bro, I thought the deal between us was that I'm the paranoid one! :D
I am a cynic :zany:
IDK if it's a deterrent or not. What I know is that (at least psychologically, if not the rest also) is more difficult for a real victim than for the others in the present context. The statal structures are in most cases surpassed by the situation, when it isn't simply about refusal to deal it (depends on the country). The general atmosphere is against "migrants".

The real victims have to proove they're victims, not a lecher. After (if .. ) he/she manages to demonstrate that and "gain the right" to remain, it remains under the surrounding's suspicion that he/she is nothing more than a more clever one, managing to trick the system.

Stigma is the word, I think.
Has this sentiment been for a long or is it higher than before?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,905
Portugal
It's more like a certitude than a sentiment. IDK if it's "higher". I think it's more "generalised".
Maybe higher was the incorrect word, is it more prevalent than before?
My personal perception is that is higher, more prevalent, more generalised than it was some 4 or 5 years ago. The "Yes" to the Brexit was a response to a real fear existing among a good part of the British population. The new political conditions, both in Europe (Italy, Hungary, Poland…) and in the USA, and this new political environment, potentialized by the internet and internet offensives led by some extremist groups, can make this wave of migrants with all its real problems as in any migration and integration process, the mother of all problems, transforming them in scapegoats as the Jews were in the 1930’s.

This line avoids the real problems, such as the understanding the causes of this waves and the dealing with the sources.

For the minds of many, it is easier to call these new migrants “terrorists” and “rapists” than to understand their human rational motifs and find ways so they can get back/stay in their home countries with positive expectations for their lives. Peace, political stability, economic and social development are the key words. With that the “terrorists”, the “rapists” as the majority of those migrants will stay in their home countries, and only a small part will integrate the normal and necessary population flux between countries.
 
Oct 2010
4,899
DC
My personal perception is that is higher, more prevalent, more generalised than it was some 4 or 5 years ago. The "Yes" to the Brexit was a response to a real fear existing among a good part of the British population. The new political conditions, both in Europe (Italy, Hungary, Poland…) and in the USA, and this new political environment, potentialized by the internet and internet offensives led by some extremist groups, can make this wave of migrants with all its real problems as in any migration and integration process, the mother of all problems, transforming them in scapegoats as the Jews were in the 1930’s.
Can people come up with a real argument outside of the Nazi-this and That.

But since that is getting brought up all the time, the closest to Nazi values and condescending outlook towards others are people from the middle east and many Muslim nations.

How do/did Middle easterners respond to migrant waves that settles(d) in what they consider their LANDS ?
For the minds of many, it is easier to call these new migrants “terrorists” and “rapists” than to understand their human rational motifs and find ways so they can get back/stay in their home countries with positive expectations for their lives. Peace, political stability, economic and social development are the key words. With that the “terrorists”, the “rapists” as the majority of those migrants will stay in their home countries, and only a small part will integrate the normal and necessary population flux between countries.

I have been told in recent years that the highlighted part can not come from without so I will double down on that and insist that it is their problem and fault if it did not come from within.


The situation is simple: Integration is on the new comer, not the welcomer, most of these people come from conservative and tradition areas where you assimilate into the family you marry into not the family changes to accommodate you , they know the concept and choose willingly to IGNORE IT because they view the welcomers as beneath them and that they are owed the welcome, they are owed the accommodations, they are owed the special treatment, they are owed the "look the other way from our behaviors and attitudes", and they owe nothing back.

Call it generalization, I call it the conservative culture of many middle eastern and third world countries.
 
Likes: Isleifson
Oct 2013
13,534
Europix
I'll start "backwards", with a couple of precisions before the answer, that is.
Can people come up with a real argument outside of the Nazi-this and That.
No!

Neo-nazis, fascists, blunt and aggressive xenophobia, racism, anti-Semitism are here, around us, vocally loud, acting.

There are Russian neo-Nazis.

Do You realise what that is ?

There is practically no Russian that hasn't at least one dead in the WW2, probably most Russians have in their family a woman , mistreated, abused if not raped by Germans, or Romanians, or Italians or Hungarians in the WW2. And there are Russian neo-Nazis today!

And no, the numbers doesn't count. What counts is that after only three generations, there are people that had forgotten, are ignoring, are denying what all the continent endured. People, press, media, organisations, politicians are going that path totally de-complexed. It's "true speaking", opposing "PC".

Really ?

Integration is on the new comer, not the welcomer
No!

It is why we are where we are now.

Heck, Iraq, how on earth one can integrate into a group if the group doesn't accept it as a part of the group?

Integration is on both. One without the other is impossible.

, transforming them in scapegoats as the Jews were in the 1930’s.
Yes, Iraq, it's true.

"The others" are accused of all the wrongs in our societies. It's always "the other's" fault, never ours. 30 years ago we were panicking 'cause the Romanians and Bulgarians can come freely. Then we where panicking 'cause there are to many Gypsies from the Balkans around here. Then we were panicking because the the Albanese refugees, that are all mobsters. Then we were panicking because the Polish plumber. Then we were panicking because of the Russian spies. And it goes crescendo, crescendo, crescendo.

But we never panick 'cause ourselves, for the things we don't want to see, for the things we don't wanna do, hoping it will pass or that our kids will deal with it. Well, no, it exploded right into our faces.

A little one for the road:

„Masseneinwanderung bedeutet Messereinwanderung“
(engl. trad: "mass invasion means knive [attack] invasion")

It's on AfD's page ("Alternative for Germany", a party that has elected representatives).

It's an interactive (google) map, and not only suggestive (every knife on the red drop is the place of an attack), but also well done (one click on the knife gives You a pop-up with a short precision and a link). Last time I checked, there were some 580 on the map. What's Your opinion on it?

Messereinwanderung - AfD-Fraktion im deutschen Bundestag
 
Oct 2010
4,899
DC
I am not sure what you are responding to by the way.

The neo-Nazi thing was not about the presence but the implication that anyone who does not agree with the migration madness as being one.

--
No, the integration is on the new comer for the most part, the welcomer has done their job actually allowing you IN, by giving you subsidies and other things not to mention rendering you undeportable no matter WHAT ; if one feels unwelcome, one can leave, if one thinks that their original situation is worse then be thankful that you are in a better situation because the majority of the welcomers allowed you IN.

if this triggers "you destroyed where I am coming from" then why are you here since "we are the bad people that destroyed where you coming from" ? one is proud of where they come from, they refuse their own role in the problems , refuse to change, accuse others of disrespecting it then turn around and expect OTHERS TO CHANGE.

this is not going to work and has stopped on many people who do HATE neo-nazis and are not ones themselves, how can one speak of neo-nazis when a larger percentage of the neo-comers share nazi bigotry than the percentage that does in the welcoming population.

This is not going to be solved by "guilt-tripping" , this is not a church or mosque or a temple where people are rendered compliant through the threat of "heathen this, infidel that, hell all" , we all speak of the rule of law but these laws are not divine, they can and should be changed.
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Late edit:
Yes, I understand the valuation of human life and rights and we have to keep that as a part of the discussion as well.
 
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Likes: Isleifson
Oct 2013
13,534
Europix
I am not sure what you are responding to by the way.

The neo-Nazi thing was not about the presence but the implication that anyone who does not agree with the migration madness as being one.

--
No, the integration is on the new comer for the most part, the welcomer has done their job actually allowing you IN, by giving you subsidies and other things not to mention rendering you undeportable no matter WHAT ; if one feels unwelcome, one can leave, if one thinks that their original situation is worse then be thankful that you are in a better situation because the majority of the welcomers allowed you IN.

if this triggers "you destroyed where I am coming from" then why are you here since "we are the bad people that destroyed where you coming from" ? one is proud of where they come from, they refuse their own role in the problems , refuse to change, accuse others of disrespecting it then turn around and expect OTHERS TO CHANGE.

this is not going to work and has stopped on many people who do HATE neo-nazis and are not ones themselves, how can one speak of neo-nazis when a larger percentage of the neo-comers share nazi bigotry than the percentage that does in the welcoming population.

This is not going to be solved by "guilt-tripping" , this is not a church or mosque or a temple where people are rendered compliant through the threat of "heathen this, infidel that, hell all" , we all speak of the rule of law but these laws are not divine, they can and should be changed.

Has nothing to do with "guilt-tripping" or calling names, bro. It has to do with facts.

Calling all the persons recently coming into Europe migrants doesn't mean they real asylum seekers doesn't exist, doesn't make the real asylum seekers disappear.
Calling every European slightly at "right" a neo-Nazi doesn't mean Neo-nazis, anti-semits, radical xenophobes don't exist, doesn't make them disappear.

And that was what Tullius said: they do exist, they do act, and their influence on the general perception is counting. And btw, I do agree with him and his post.

the welcomer has done their job actually allowing you IN,
Yes, if it's about offering a temporary asylum (like the Belgians in France in the 2 WW, for example). No, if he wants to integrate him no.

It takes some 15 years from birth to make a Belgian (or Russian, or a Japanese or whatever). And the family invested, and the community invested, and the state invested to achieve that. And even with all that, it can come out a non-integrated person. A serial killer. A sexual predator. A terrorist. And You're gonna say that a migrant, an immigrant, an asylum seeker will integrate like that, by himself, just because he has the will, the gratitude?

No, my friend: it's what was praticed in the last 5 decades (if not more) in Europe, and it is what led us where we are.

The "Right side" said (still saying): "we already made so much for them: we brought them here, offered a better life, in a marvellous world. It's up to them to integrate". So they did ... nothing.
The "Left side" said : "poor things, now we offered them a better life, in a marvellous world. They're good and grateful, they surely will integrate". So they did ... nothing.

And here we are: the Morocco born grandpa' wearing a cool leader jacket, the Morocco born grandma' wearing a miniskirt, the Belgian of "Morocco ancestry" born, raised, educated, grown-up grandson wearing the beard after his hadji at Mecca, wearing a white caftan and leaving to make the holly jihhad in Syria.

0 + 0 = 0
"Right: they have to"
+ "Left- they surely will..." = "Let's do nothing"


No white-man's-guilt in all that: it's the reality.