Europe and Migrations

Apr 2018
979
Upland, Sweden
There a lot of ways to answer to such a song.
No, there aren't really - not in a liberal democracy. What else can the government do but take him to court? What can the people do without being branded "discriminatory" or being dragged into court themselves for breaching mr Conrads vaunted rights? The point I'm making is that liberal democracies are not meant to handle the kind of ethnic tension this is so clearly an example of. If such a system is to actually work you need, I believe, a "pre-political we" - some kind of common identity that is not merely the result of whatever happens to be the consensus reached by the public discourse at a particular moment. We used to have that in Europe, more than most places in the world - which is probably one of the reasons why we could develop liberalism...


We like to say that our societies are based on the rule of law. If respecting what we think it's a fundament of our societies is a waste of time and makes us week ... IDK. I was thought that a week person is the one not able to respect it's own decisions, it's own precepts, it's own rules.

But ok, I might be wrong.
Why did human beings develop governments back in the early bronze age - was it to uphold human rights? Look, I like the Rule of Law (TM) as much as the next guy, but the reality is that in situations of tension it will be infringed, regardless of what your or my opinion is on the matter. The example of Abraham Lincoln and his suspension of habeas corpus in the US during the civil war is very telling. What we have in Europe now is that social stability is continuously decreasing, thanks in large part due to immigration. This also creates problems for a society that values the rule of law.

Also, the rule of law is a part of our societies. Tell me, do you think mr Conrad is an assimilated, working, proud citoyen de la république? Do you think he sees himself that way? If you could take the ideal type of the perfect frenchman (an abstraction, of course) - proud of the republic's values, loyally pays his tax (up to a point:cool:), hardworking, great taste in wine and a bit worse taste in women - do you think he would see Conrad that way? And what is the rule of law anyway: The ever increasing security arrangements the french government, along with all other Western European governments implement because of fear social unrest and terrorism, do they serve the rule of law as well? Would you say that the rule of law has been strengthened, weakened or remained the same in Europe during the past 40 years? Why do you think the rule of law developed and grew in Europe, and hasn't really caught on in say... the Middle East or Africa? Could social division and lack of any common identity besides tribe or religion have something to do with it?

This is precisely the point - no society, not even supposed liberal democracies treats foreigners and native people the same. Doing so is madness, even according to old, classically liberal principles (or do you think it is a coincidence that nationalism and liberalism arose in Europe at more or less the same time during the 1800s?). Now in much of Europe, our elites seem to have forgotten this, and pretend as if this is not the case. What this inevitably results in is that we end up with a large group of people who in practice are neither entirely french nor entirely foreign, but the legal system and all formal institutions of society must treat as french. Even though everyone knows they're not french in the same way as say, Gérard Dépardieu or Charles de Gaulle.

If anything, there seems to be good reason to suppose these matters are even more important in a free society - like ours are supposed to be - because, as you just pointed out, the government can't regulate social unrest very effectively. Just look at ancient Athens - I don't think it is a coincidence that Pericles tightened citizenship laws simultaneously as he extended political rights also to the poorer athenians? Or how about modern Switzerland, the most democratic country on the planet - I don't think it's a coincidence they have the attitude they have towards immigration and non-western immigration in particular.
 

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,976
Lorraine tudesque
No, there aren't really - not in a liberal democracy. What else can the government do but take him to court? What can the people do without being branded "discriminatory" or being dragged into court themselves for breaching mr Conrads vaunted rights? The point I'm making is that liberal democracies are not meant to handle the kind of ethnic tension this is so clearly an example of. If such a system is to actually work you need, I believe, a "pre-political we" - some kind of common identity that is not merely the result of whatever happens to be the consensus reached by the public discourse at a particular moment. We used to have that in Europe, more than most places in the world - which is probably one of the reasons why we could develop liberalism...




Why did human beings develop governments back in the early bronze age - was it to uphold human rights? Look, I like the Rule of Law (TM) as much as the next guy, but the reality is that in situations of tension it will be infringed, regardless of what your or my opinion is on the matter. The example of Abraham Lincoln and his suspension of habeas corpus in the US during the civil war is very telling. What we have in Europe now is that social stability is continuously decreasing, thanks in large part due to immigration. This also creates problems for a society that values the rule of law.

Also, the rule of law is a part of our societies. Tell me, do you think mr Conrad is an assimilated, working, proud citoyen de la république? Do you think he sees himself that way? If you could take the ideal type of the perfect frenchman (an abstraction, of course) - proud of the republic's values, loyally pays his tax (up to a point:cool:), hardworking, great taste in wine and a bit worse taste in women - do you think he would see Conrad that way? And what is the rule of law anyway: The ever increasing security arrangements the french government, along with all other Western European governments implement because of fear social unrest and terrorism, do they serve the rule of law as well? Would you say that the rule of law has been strengthened, weakened or remained the same in Europe during the past 40 years? Why do you think the rule of law developed and grew in Europe, and hasn't really caught on in say... the Middle East or Africa? Could social division and lack of any common identity besides tribe or religion have something to do with it?

This is precisely the point - no society, not even supposed liberal democracies treats foreigners and native people the same. Doing so is madness, even according to old, classically liberal principles (or do you think it is a coincidence that nationalism and liberalism arose in Europe at more or less the same time during the 1800s?). Now in much of Europe, our elites seem to have forgotten this, and pretend as if this is not the case. What this inevitably results in is that we end up with a large group of people who in practice are neither entirely french nor entirely foreign, but the legal system and all formal institutions of society must treat as french. Even though everyone knows they're not french in the same way as say, Gérard Dépardieu or Charles de Gaulle.

If anything, there seems to be good reason to suppose these matters are even more important in a free society - like ours are supposed to be - because, as you just pointed out, the government can't regulate social unrest very effectively. Just look at ancient Athens - I don't think it is a coincidence that Pericles tightened citizenship laws simultaneously as he extended political rights also to the poorer athenians? Or how about modern Switzerland, the most democratic country on the planet - I don't think it's a coincidence they have the attitude they have towards immigration and non-western immigration in particular.
That's more or less what the last French master thinker is writing

https://www.amazon.fr/dp/2021319008/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb
 
Apr 2018
979
Upland, Sweden
Well, the real problem are the reactions of news paper like LE MONDE or LIBERATION.

Nick Conrad ou le symbole de la haine anti-Blancs
I don't quite get it (maybe my french isn't good enough) - is the man actually serious when he talks about Zidane, "M Black" and the other guys as having said the statements they did because of... love of France? is this some kind of meta-irony, or intellectual excercise which I lack the nuanced understanding to pick up?

That's more or less what the last French master thinker is writing

https://www.amazon.fr/dp/2021319008/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb
Huh. Very interesting. Public debate in Sweden is very anglo-saxon, even in the alternative media. I shall check him out, seems like a fascinating man.
 
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Likes: Isleifson
Oct 2013
14,420
Europix
.. is this some kind of meta-irony... .
Nope: it's a meta-charge.

See
" ... On imagine ce qu’il dirait si, par hypothèse funeste, un rappeur blanc osait reprendre de telles paroles en ciblant des noirs. ... "
" ... We can imagine what reactions would be if a white rapper would dare using the same words referring to blacks ... "