Europe facing the danger of Internet censorship

Oct 2009
3,416
San Diego
#91
There is not in fact zero evidence thta any ancient culture thought that the world was flat, the early Greeks pictured it for instance as a disk surrounded by an encircling ocean.
Wrong- the ancient greeks drew no such pictures. It was in fact the ancient greeks who figured out that it HAD to be a sphere.

The Egyptians depicted both the sun and moon as spheres in relief carvings, but did not voice any idea of the shape, nor size of the earth. We can INFER they imagined it as flat as they believed the sun had to travel thru the underworld to get to the other side of the 'earth' - but in fact they never actually describe the world in any way at all- they just took it for how it appeared.

People sometimes cite old maps that show a disk shaped earth... but, in fact, a circle is how ancient peoples depicted a sphere in flat drawings, so that is not evidence they actually envisioned the earth as a flat disk.

And people in the 1700s ridiculed people of the 13 and 1400s for voicing fears of sailing "Off the edge of the earth"- which they smugly interpreted as meaning they thought the world was flat- when in fact it was a nautical term referring to sailing out of sight of land when the only way you could truly know your position at sea was using portolan charts to fix bearings on headlands and landmarks.


Hegemonic empires resulted in people traveling widely and noticing certain odd things, like the sun being at different heights in the sky, or stars becoming visible or invisible beyond the horizon... and that and only that appears to have been the point at which human beings began to even consider that the world had a "shape" at all.

Prior to such experience of significant travel... there appears to be no evidence that people "pictured" the world as having any given shape or dimensions.

Once they started to give it any thought at all- it became clear that only ONE shape explained observations.
The Greeks figured out the sphere in the 6th century bc.

Flat earth beliefs are relatively modern imbecility, based upon stories about how people used to believe such things. When in fact they either didn't believe it was flat. - or they did not think of the world as having any shape at all.
 
Mar 2014
1,797
Lithuania
#92
As I understand it, a place like Historum will be excluded because it is too "insignificant"
Maybe I am paranoid, but I don't like whole idea on principle. Government will start to decide what can be posted on internet, this can't be good. Anyway I often have trouble caring for political issues, this is something that I can follow and base my vote on.
 
Likes: Yôḥānān
Aug 2010
15,244
Welsh Marches
#93
Wrong- the ancient greeks drew no such pictures. It was in fact the ancient greeks who figured out that it HAD to be a sphere.

The Egyptians depicted both the sun and moon as spheres in relief carvings, but did not voice any idea of the shape, nor size of the earth. We can INFER they imagined it as flat as they believed the sun had to travel thru the underworld to get to the other side of the 'earth' - but in fact they never actually describe the world in any way at all- they just took it for how it appeared.

People sometimes cite old maps that show a disk shaped earth... but, in fact, a circle is how ancient peoples depicted a sphere in flat drawings, so that is not evidence they actually envisioned the earth as a flat disk.

And people in the 1700s ridiculed people of the 13 and 1400s for voicing fears of sailing "Off the edge of the earth"- which they smugly interpreted as meaning they thought the world was flat- when in fact it was a nautical term referring to sailing out of sight of land when the only way you could truly know your position at sea was using portolan charts to fix bearings on headlands and landmarks.


Hegemonic empires resulted in people traveling widely and noticing certain odd things, like the sun being at different heights in the sky, or stars becoming visible or invisible beyond the horizon... and that and only that appears to have been the point at which human beings began to even consider that the world had a "shape" at all.

Prior to such experience of significant travel... there appears to be no evidence that people "pictured" the world as having any given shape or dimensions.

Once they started to give it any thought at all- it became clear that only ONE shape explained observations.
The Greeks figured out the sphere in the 6th century bc.

Flat earth beliefs are relatively modern imbecility, based upon stories about how people used to believe such things. When in fact they either didn't believe it was flat. - or they did not think of the world as having any shape at all.
Not wrong at all, you are talking from a position of ignorance, the disk-shaped earth with a surrounding stream of ocean is clearly indicated in early mythical descriptions; it was thus imagined, to take one instance among many, that the sun, pictured as the god Helios, made his daily journey across the sky from east to west, and then travelled back around the ocean to his starting-point in a golden vessel. And if the earth was always pictured as being a sphere, you are contradicting yourself when you say that the Greeks figured out that it had to be a sphere!
 
Feb 2011
6,155
#94
There is ZERO evidence that ANY ancient culture thought the world was flat. Prior to the ancient greeks, most cultures do not even mention the shape of the world as something they even wondered about.
The Chinese did (kind of, more like an 'inverted pan' than flat), but to be fair this was because the flat earth view of the Greeks had some problems that couldn't be explained whereas it could be addressed when using the flat earth theory of the Chinese, ergo the Greeks had a stronger incentive to look for an alternative theory:

pg 13:
The paradigm switch required will be even more demanding when we study the ancient Chinese gai tain system, because it asks us to overcome the more general Western bias of a (hemi)spherical firmament. Our mental gymnastics will be challenged to the utmost when we realize that some inconvenient features of the ancient Greek conception of a flat earth, and especially that of the absence of time difference, found an ingenious solution in this ancient Chinese conception of the flat earth. The ancient Greeks and the ancient Chinese share a prejudice resulting from the historical fact that all great civilizations inhabited the northern hemisphere of the earth. I call this “the northern hemisphere bias”. We will meet this form of bias, for example, in a curious omission in Aristotle’s arguments for the sphericity of the earth (Chap. 12), and in the revival of flat earth conceptions in modern times (Chap. 16). A reminiscence of this bias is the modern nickname “down under” for Australia. A good remedy against this bias is to upside down your globe.

Another interpretive pitfall is that we tend to think that those who provide the right solution to a problem will have the most rational arguments, more than those who fail and stick to false solutions. We tend to think that those who defend the wrong position are less clever. Both tendencies, for which we can coin the term “right solution bias,” can be questioned, and the history of the battle on the shape of the earth is a witness, as shown in Chap. 12 on Aristotle’s arguments for the sphericity of the earth. Another example of this “right solution bias,” which will be discussed in Chaps. 5, 9, and 10, is the explanation of solar and lunar eclipses and the phases of the moon. One of the objectives of this book is to try to make students of ancient cosmology somewhat more aware of all these pitfalls.


Greek flat earth theory is that the heaven is a dome that touches the earth at the edges
Chinese flat earth theory is that heaven only looks like it touches the earth because the limits of human vision gives it an optical illusion, heaven is actually parallel with the earth.
 
Aug 2010
15,244
Welsh Marches
#95
Thank you, that's interesting. I would add, however, that the early Greeks were not altogether consisent in their view of the nature of the sky. They could picture it, to be sure, as a metallic dome, but this was an imaginative ('mythical') image rather than a theory about its nature, and such images did not necessarily exclude counter-images. The Greeks could thus picture the world of the dead both as being beneath the earth and at the edges of the earth as if that made no real difference.
 
Feb 2011
6,155
#96
Anyway, having lived in China, there's pros and cons:

You don't see a lot of the flat earthers, anti-vaccine parents, creationists, climate change deniers, crystal therapists (albeit traditional medicine is still promoted), large organized hate groups such as the white supremacists (Han Chauvinists from the Chinese perspective). Wechat and QQ could have never grown to their current size without censorship of foreign competitors. This may come as a surprise but I find Chinese news to be more professional, also much more boring because sensationalism took a relative back seat. The sheer amount of misinformation from supposedly neutral newspapers such as the New York Times.... from just mistranslating Chinese speakers alone to fit a narrative.... is astounding. Chinese media simply don't tell you what they don't want you to hear. Whereas the media here twists what people say and make you hear what they want you to hear.
On the flip side you got to pay if you want to use facebook or youtube, and there's always the risk that the VPN you're using gets shut down right after you pay, in which case you aren't going to get your money back. Other internet sites such as Google (when I was there) were "half" banned, in which you can use it fine at the start, but if you use it for around 15 minutes straight you get locked out for ~30 minutes.

Trolls of all kinds still exist.
 
Likes: spirocate
Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#97
Maybe I am paranoid, but I don't like whole idea on principle. Government will start to decide what can be posted on internet, this can't be good. Anyway I often have trouble caring for political issues, this is something that I can follow and base my vote on.
One of the major problems with these issues is that they are too technical and difficult to understand the consequences maybe even for legislators and both sides may tend to exagerate arguments to win the public opinion.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,971
Lago Maggiore, Italy
As I understand it, a place like Historum will be excluded because it is too "insignificant"
This is something which was already clear in the first version of the directive. Historum could be considered significant in Romania [this is really curious, but we are among the 1,000 most active websites in Romania ...], but in the whole EU Historum is under the limits stated by the direction for its application.