Evidence of African civilizations

Jan 2019
22
Norway
#42
What people are doing in this thread, is the equivalent of crediting the Khoisan people for the construction of the Castle of Good Hope in South Africa. Most of these structures are not the result of indigenous sub-Saharan development, and are instead off-shoots from other cultures and peoples.

The Scramble of Africa was far from being the first colonization of Sub-Saharan Africa. The Arabs, Berbers, and Afro-Asiatics from the Middle East, North Africa, Chad and North-Eastern Africa all colonized parts of sub-Saharan Africa and built these structures. Crediting Niger-Congo for these civilizations is like crediting Shona people for Rhodesia.

Let me break this down quickly.

First, in the prehistoric era, at a time when the concept of society was unknown in Africa, when every sub-Saharan tribe on earth was still paleolithic, the Natufians came in starting around 25,000 years ago, and they eventually settled the Nile and began to form complex Neolithic societies in the Nile Valley. The ethnic Natufians were the founding populations of ancient Egypt and Nubia, and they alone brought agriculture into Africa, along with their burial traditions and their complex ideological thoughts, etc...

They brought the stone-age Sub-Saharan people all the technology of early civilization. All of the earliest domesticated crops and animals are associated with Natufians in Africa, and not with Sub-Saharan people.

Although ancient Nubia wasn’t built or ruled by Sub-Saharans, they eventually had a substantial black population. The earliest pastoralist Blacks show up in the fossil record around 3000 BC in the Sudd Marshlands. Of course the ancient kingdoms of Egypt and Nubia brought all kinds of new technology and opportunity for the Nilotes who had largely come up from the Sudd. Unfortunately, the Nile Valley people of Natufian lineage were also the first outside ethnic group to begin to enslave Sub-Saharan people in large numbers. Sub-Saharan slaves were sometimes captured in battles, and they were also traded for manufactured goods and weapons. There’s even proof the Egyptians branded their slaves. Most everyone is very familiar with the contributions of ancient Egyptian and Nubian culture, and their effect they had on the surrounding Sub-Saharan populations of the region.

The Yemenite Arab Sabaeans were the one responsible for development in Ethiopia. I'm not going to make too much explanations here

The Berbers from the Maghreb are responsible for the development of West Africa.

The Berbers had a Natufian and Caspian ethnic heritage, with some infinitesimal traces of very ancient Sub-Saharan, probably not even enough to show up in an autosomal test, they were white-skinned people. The Carthaginians even domesticated the African elephant and then used it in war. After the Berbers were conquered by Muslim Arabs, and after they converted to Islam, the Tuareg Berbers built a trade route into West Africa, and they taught some of the blacks Arabic. They built a few towns, they built Timbuktu, and they set up Islamic schools, and it was the first time in history where sub-Saharan people were literate . This led to the first confirmed authentically ethnic Sub-Saharan written manuscripts. This was called the Ghana Empire. This Berber education eventually led to a black takeover. Due to their sheer overwhelming force of numbers, as opposed to military skill, they were able to overtake the Berbers. When the blacks overthrew The Berbers and took control of Timbuktu, this was called the Mali Empire. It’s the first authentic black-ruled empire in history. The Berbers had actually built Timbuktu to escape the Mali Empire, but the city was eventually taken over by that genuinely Sub-Saharan Mali empire anyway. The Mali empire arose from the knowledge that Sub-Saharan people gained from the Tuaregs. It was an Islamic empire, and the scholars, the merchants, and the majority of the other men of great renown continued to be of Berber and Arab ethnic stock, even though it had become a Sub-Saharan ruled empire.

In South-Eastern Africa, the input didn't come from the Berbers, Yemenite or Natufians, but from Asian people from Indonesia. The people of Indonesia were able to construct boats, something that South-Eastern African people didn't accomplish, to sail and discover the Islands of Madagascar well before the Bantu people,(it is worth noting that the Bantu people were sitting right next to those Islands while the Indonesian people were millions of kilometers away from them). The people of Madagascar introduced South-Eastern Africans to the cultivation of banana, and to the Indonesian concept of centralized state. It helped them to create states like Buganda and Bunyoro, as well as other smaller states in the Great Lakes region of South-Eastern Africa. Other than this, the South-Eastern African people also benefited from the input of the Cushites from North-Eastern Africa, as evidenced by the Kingdom of Rwanda, where the more "Hamitic" Tutsi were ruling over the more "Bantu" Hutus for centuries.

And finally, came the Europeans. They introduced the sub-Saharan people to the Latin alphabet, taught them how to cultivate maize, cocoa, and other crops, and introduced them to the concept of capitalism and democracy. The Portuguese taught the people of Benin the concept of bronze metallurgy, which helped them to develop the now well-known sculptures that they produced.

All in all, sub-Saharan ethnic indigenous civilizations are almost non-existent. All examples of sub-Saharan development emerged because of "colonialism", it was just not always by the same people. Sub-Saharans are still colonized by Berbers in countries like Mauritania.

People need to stop being Afrocentric and crediting Niger-Congo speaking people for the achievements of Afro-Asiatics, Berbers and Indonesians. Niger-Congo people didn't build a single civilization, they were "colonized". Colonization is not a bad thing at all, and was the main reason for the development of the sub-Saharan African people in most cases.
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,509
Benin City, Nigeria
#43
The Berbers from the Maghreb are responsible for the development of West Africa.

The Berbers had a Natufian and Caspian ethnic heritage, with some infinitesimal traces of very ancient Sub-Saharan, probably not even enough to show up in an autosomal test, they were white-skinned people. The Carthaginians even domesticated the African elephant and then used it in war. After the Berbers were conquered by Muslim Arabs, and after they converted to Islam, the Tuareg Berbers built a trade route into West Africa, and they taught some of the blacks Arabic. They built a few towns, they built Timbuktu, and they set up Islamic schools, and it was the first time in history where sub-Saharan people were literate . This led to the first confirmed authentically ethnic Sub-Saharan written manuscripts. This was called the Ghana Empire. This Berber education eventually led to a black takeover. Due to their sheer overwhelming force of numbers, as opposed to military skill, they were able to overtake the Berbers. When the blacks overthrew The Berbers and took control of Timbuktu, this was called the Mali Empire. It’s the first authentic black-ruled empire in history. The Berbers had actually built Timbuktu to escape the Mali Empire, but the city was eventually taken over by that genuinely Sub-Saharan Mali empire anyway. The Mali empire arose from the knowledge that Sub-Saharan people gained from the Tuaregs. It was an Islamic empire, and the scholars, the merchants, and the majority of the other men of great renown continued to be of Berber and Arab ethnic stock, even though it had become a Sub-Saharan ruled empire.
All of this is completely wrong, actually.

The Arabs made direct contact with Ghana, and that was the origin of the spread of Islam there. It wasn't the Berbers that spread Islam there or "taught blacks Arabic", but the Arabs themselves, according to Arabic sources. In fact the earliest source to mention any learning/scholarship among the people of Ghana, al-Bakri, also mentions that there were still some Arabs there descended from the first group of Arabs to go to Ghana centuries earlier. He mentioned that they had their own community there that intermarried among themselves, and he also mentioned that some of them followed the pagan religion (the indigenous religion of the people of Ghana) that existed in Ghana at that time. So there was even a two-way exchange of cultural influence with those Arabs that brought Islam to Ghana.

What makes this narrative you've constructed even more absurd is that Timbuktu was not even contemporary with Ghana. Timbuktu literally didn't exist when the first mention of scholarship/learning in Ghana is mentioned.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the first Islamic scholarship in west Africa was not from Timbuktu. In fact Timbuktu was not even a center of learning until centuries later after it was influenced by Walata, a city that had originally been founded (as a town named Biru) by the Soninke.

Mali's rise had nothing to do with Timbuktu in particular, and there is an Arabic source describing the conversion of a pre-Malian empire Malinke state to Islam from before Timbuktu even existed as a city. The rest of this about the scholars, merchants, etc. all being Berber and Arab is false as well.

Mauritania was conquered by Hassaniya Arabs in the 17th century, long after there was any black state ruling there. The Bani Hassan Arabs invaded and defeated the Berbers that were ruling there, but the Berbers had been ruling there only after the end of Songhai. I would say both the Berbers and the blacks there have been Arabized.

And as far as early contacts between Berbers and other groups, one of the earliest sources to mention Gao (the state that preceded the Songhai empire), al-Yaqubi, describes it in the 9th century as lording over the Sanhaja (the Sanhaja were Berbers), rather than the other way around. He describes a powerful pagan empire lording over surrounding groups.

I don't know where you got this weird narrative from. I guess you just strung together bits and pieces of information you found with Google and cooked it all up in your head.

The rest of your nonsense about "sub-Saharan ethnic indigenous civilizations are almost non-existent" is equally crazy.

To spin so many blatant and ridiculous lies over a subject you clearly have not studied at all. . .I think you need help.
 
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Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,509
Benin City, Nigeria
#44
The Yemenite Arab Sabaeans were the one responsible for development in Ethiopia. I'm not going to make too much explanations here
Development in Ethiopia dates back to the Gash group culture, which had trade connections with the Nile Valley; whatever later influences they had from other groups from the Middle East wouldn't be much different from how some early European polities were influenced by the Middle East.
 
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Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,509
Benin City, Nigeria
#45
And finally, came the Europeans. They introduced the sub-Saharan people to the Latin alphabet, taught them how to cultivate maize, cocoa, and other crops, and introduced them to the concept of capitalism and democracy. The Portuguese taught the people of Benin the concept of bronze metallurgy, which helped them to develop the now well-known sculptures that they produced.
This is completely insane.

I mean, this is so utterly idiotic and false it should be ban-worthy.

You really are simply some kind of stormfront troll, as I've suggested in previous posts.

Brass/bronze casting in southern Nigeria dates from the 9th century (the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes), and probably earlier actually (earlier dates have been obtained, 9th century is just the average of all the dates), while metallurgy in general in Nigeria is much older than that, and two other cultural groups in southern Nigeria (the Yoruba of Ife and the Igbo of Igbo-Ukwu), very near to Benin, had been casting sculptures in bronze and brass for several centuries before the Portuguese arrived to Nigeria. The claims about agriculture, capitalism, democracy are also ridiculous.
 
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Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,509
Benin City, Nigeria
#46
In South-Eastern Africa, the input didn't come from the Berbers, Yemenite or Natufians, but from Asian people from Indonesia. The people of Indonesia were able to construct boats, something that South-Eastern African people didn't accomplish, to sail and discover the Islands of Madagascar well before the Bantu people,(it is worth noting that the Bantu people were sitting right next to those Islands while the Indonesian people were millions of kilometers away from them). The people of Madagascar introduced South-Eastern Africans to the cultivation of banana, and to the Indonesian concept of centralized state. It helped them to create states like Buganda and Bunyoro, as well as other smaller states in the Great Lakes region of South-Eastern Africa.
The Indonesians founded (or influenced the founding of) Buganda and Bunyoro?

The cultivation of banana. . .is the reason states were founded in the Great Lakes region of South-Eastern Africa?

You can't be serious.
 
Jan 2019
22
Norway
#47
The Arabs made direct contact with Ghana, and that was the origin of the spread of Islam there. It wasn't the Berbers that spread Islam there or "taught blacks Arabic", but the Arabs themselves, according to Arabic sources. In fact the earliest source to mention any learning/scholarship in Ghana, al-Bakri, also mentions that there were still some Arabs there descended from the first group of Arabs to go to Ghana centuries earlier. He mentioned that they had their own community there that intermarried among themselves.

What makes this narrative you've constructed even more absurd is that Timbuktu was not even contemporary with Ghana. Timbuktu literally didn't exist when the first mention of scholarship/learning in Ghana is mentioned.
Actually, you are right. I think I mixed up Gao/Songhay and Ghana. Sorry. Songhay was founded by Yemenites settlers. Sanhaja Berbers were the one responsible for the Ghana Empire according to the Tarikh al-Fettash, by Mahmud Kati.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the first Islamic scholarship in west Africa was not from Timbuktu. In fact Timbuktu was not even a center of learning until centuries later after it was influenced by Walata, a town that had originally been founded by the Soninke.
Interesting. Do you have any sources about early Islamic scholarship in Walata? Were the scholars ethnic Soninke?

Mali's rise had nothing to do with Timbuktu in particular, and there is an Arabic source describing the conversion of a pre-Malian empire Malinke state to Islam from before Timbuktu even existed as a city. The rest of this about the scholars and merchants all being Berber and Arab is false as well.
How so? Mahmud Kati is said to have a father of Sephardic Arab Muslim heritage. Ahmad Baba, considered the greatest scholar of Timbuktu, was a Sanhaja Berber. And that's just a few scholars.

Mauritania was conquered by Hassaniya Arabs in the 17th century, long after there was any black state ruling there. The Bani Hassan Arabs invaded and defeated the Berbers that were ruling there, but the Berbers had been ruling there only after the end of Songhai. I would say both the Berbers and the blacks there have been Arabized.
I think you are mistaken. I'm talking about the whole modern country of Mauritania, whose southern part was not inhabited by Berbers or Arabs in the past, but by Wolof and Soninke, who are currently enslaved and colonized by Berbers and Arabs.


And as far as early contacts between Berbers and other groups, one of the earliest sources to mention Gao (the state that preceded the Songhai empire), al-Yaqubi, describes it in the 9th century as lording over the Sanhaja (the Sanhaja were Berbers), also, rather than the other way around. He describes a powerful pagan empire lording over surrounding groups.
Are you refering to Kawkaw?
 
Jan 2019
22
Norway
#48
The Indonesians founded (or influenced the founding of) Buganda and Bunyoro?

The cultivation of banana. . .is the reason states were founded in the Great Lakes region of South-Eastern Africa?

You can't be serious.
I'm very serious. What you just did is the equivalent of saying "sub-Saharans didn't domesticate a lot of cattles because of a fly(tsetse)?" as if saying that was ridiculous. This is a superficial statements that looks at things simplistically to then give the impression that a very reasonable statement is ridiculous

Without the proto-malagasy much of Eastern Africa would be semi-nomadic into colonial times. The bananas caused a population growth, which eventually led to the formation of those states. It was also a huge factor for the Bantu expansion :
The introduction and spread of bananas in Africa may also have been key factors in the Bantu expansion, one of the most important topics in African prehistory (Diamond & Bellwood 2003, Eggert 2005, Vansina 1984, 1995). Vansina (1990) and De Langhe et al. (1994/5) suggest that plantains enabled rapid Bantu colonization of the ever-green rainforest where neither yams nor cereals, adapted to a seasonal climate, could thrive. Blench (2009), in his West African entry scenario, also argues for a key role of Musa, together with the Indo-Pacific crops taro and water yam, in the Bantu expansion
 
Jan 2019
22
Norway
#49
You really are simply some kind of stormfront troll, as I've suggested in previous posts.
As expected, simply pointing out the non-indigenous roots of the vast majority of African states would have me called a "racist". I never posted a single thing on stormfront in my entire life, and I don't plan to.

I guess Martin Bernal is part of the Nation Of Islam.

Brass/bronze casting in southern Nigeria dates from the 9th century (the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes), and probably earlier actually (earlier dates have been obtained, 9th century is just the average of all the dates), while metallurgy in general in Nigeria is much older than that, and two other cultural groups in southern Nigeria (the Yoruba of Ife and the Igbo of Igbo-Ukwu), very near to Benin, had been casting sculptures in bronze and brass for several centuries before the Portuguese arrived to Nigeria. The claims about agriculture, capitalism, democracy are also ridiculous.
The problem here, is that Edo people are simply not Yoruba or Igbo, but only related to them. It makes thus absolutely no sense to use them as an argument against the idea that Edo people learned metallurgy from the Portuguese.

Anyway, here is an excerpt from the book "Antiquities from the city of Benin and from other parts of West Africa in the British Museum", by Charles Hercules Read and Ormonde Maddock Dalton :
The probability that the teachers were Portuguese is strengthenedby the results of Mr. Gowland's analysis, which point to the Iberian Peninsula as the source from which the metal was derived, and it would almost seem as if the metal, being unfit formaking vessels or fire-arms, had been specially imported for the purpose of such works of art.How far Europe is responsible for the introduction of the art of casting metal into West Africa is a problem not easy to solve. Whether it is considered to be indigenous or not,it is fairly certain that the presence of Europeans and their extensive importation of brassinto the country fostered the practice of casting and made it a common phase of nativeindustry
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,509
Benin City, Nigeria
#50
Actually, you are right. I think I mixed up Gao/Songhay and Ghana. Sorry. Songhay was founded by Yemenites settlers. Sanhaja Berbers were the one responsible for the Ghana Empire according to the Tarikh al-Fettash, by Mahmud Kati.
Mahmud Kati wrote many centuries after the Ghana empire was actually founded, and long after it had ceased to exist, and he had no access to sources of information that could have told him about the founding of the state. In fact, he had no access to any reliable information about the founding of the state at all. None of the early Arabic sources, contemporary with the existence of Ghana, record anything about the state being founded by Berbers, and they are quite clear about considering it a black kingdom/empire.

And what Kati says is "It is disputed as to the tribe to which these kings belonged; some say they were Wa'kore [Soninke], others say they were Wangara [Malinke] which appears improbable. Others say they were Sanhaja, which seems to me more likely. . ."

But as I said he had no access to any reliable information about its founding anyway, and it is difficult to see how he would be in a position to determine what is "more likely" about a state in another part of west Africa that had ended centuries before he wrote anything.

The Za dynasty of Gao/Songhay being from Yemen is what Muslims hankering after prestige (it was prestigious to claim origin from Arabia, the homeland of the Islamic religion; this kind of claiming is a well documented phenomenon) claimed, it's not an actual historically based idea. It's like claiming Britons really descended from Troy.

Interesting. Do you have any sources about early Islamic scholarship in Walata? Were the scholars ethnic Soninke?
I'd have to look for more information on that as I don't have access to that many books right now.

How so? Mahmud Kati is said to have a father of Sephardic Arab Muslim heritage. Ahmad Baba, considered the greatest scholar of Timbuktu, was a Sanhaja Berber. And that's just a few scholars.
Mahmud Kati was partly of Arab, and partly of Soninke origin. Ahmad Baba's teacher, Muhammad Baghayogho, was not Berber or Arab, and Baghayogho's brother was likewise also not Berber.

There were more than "a few scholars" from Timbuktu, and from Mali/Songhai, some of them have nisbas indicating their non-Berber origin.

I think you are mistaken. I'm talking about the whole modern country of Mauritania, whose southern part was not inhabited by Berbers or Arabs in the past, but by Wolof and Soninke, who are currently enslaved and colonized by Berbers and Arabs.

My point was that Berber rule followed the collapse of the political authority of the black ruled states there, and that Berbers themselves ended up getting conquered by the Arabs that invaded there. But prior to the fall of the black ruled states there it was not simply a story of Berbers ruling or enslaving there, i.e. it was not just some straight colonization of the area as your narrative would suggest.

Are you refering to Kawkaw?
That is Gao, so yes.