evidences of early Vaishnavism from the art of Indus valley civilization and copper hoard culture

do you agree with the assertion of early Vaishnavism art in Indus Valley Civilization and CHC?

  • yes

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • no

    Votes: 5 83.3%

  • Total voters
    6
Mar 2019
1,733
KL
a Krishna type imagery from IVC

1561044535374.png

probably the deity next to krishna type imagery is an avatar of vishnu

Krishna slaying a horse demon, Gandhara

1561044620442.png

Indus copper plate which has interpreted as evidence of Vaishnavism

https://archive.org/stream/CompositeAntrhomorphicFigureFromHaryanaPragdharaSKManjul/Composite Antrhomorphic figure from Haryana (Pragdhara) - SK Manjul_djvu.txt

http://www.jorhsa.com/Edition_2015/Copper.pdf

1561044893394.png

Varaha (the boar-headed Vishnu avatar), on a Gurjara-Pratihara coin. 850–900 CE. British Museum.

Gurjara-Pratihara dynasty - Wikipedia

very similar imagery from IVC as well

1561045140382.png

some of the earliest hindu temples have been declared Vishnu temples as well

elliptical Hindu temples with mandapa from Nagari, Chittorgarh and Vidisha near Heliodorus pillar have been dated to 4th century BC or 350-300 BC.[33][34].

These are all vishnu temples

Bhimbetka III A-27
, also called "Gbroken hands ", it is ahalf-cave similar to a chapel. Beside a tree of life with honeycombs you can recognize Krisna with the wheel of time (or a lotus) of white color. On your feet of the tree vihe is a guardian with a raised sword. A double row of dotspasses through the wall, while a multitude of white hands are imprinted
the altezza de Krishna's eyes suggest a sealing of the pact with the god.The average size of white hands is 25 cm,
while the only one red imprintis only 19 cm. In the middle of these hands a knight throws himself on abig cat, which in turn attacks a half bovine and half elefan animalyou.This painting, also white, isfilled with mesh hatches and measures 103cm.
1561047529305.png

Pitture rupestri dell'India Centrale, di Giancarlo Mauri

unknown date probably much earlier than historic periods

regards
 
Last edited:
Jun 2019
1
lisbon
i think this is not conclusive .. similar images could be found in distant regions in other civilizations .. but it's not impossible that IVC preserved elements of its religion that were integrated later in the vedic pantheon .. i know that in the rigveda vishnu used to be a minor god , but personally i don't know whether he was originally in the aryan pantheon or a local god ..
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,579
USA
i think this is not conclusive .. similar images could be found in distant regions in other civilizations .. but it's not impossible that IVC preserved elements of its religion that were integrated later in the vedic pantheon .. i know that in the rigveda vishnu used to be a minor god , but personally i don't know whether he was originally in the aryan pantheon or a local god ..
Integrated later into Vedic pantheon?

Vedic Gods gave rise to the present Hindu Gods. No Agni and Rudra, no Shiva, GaNapati and KartikEya/Skanda, No Vishnu and Indra, no NArAyaNa. No Aditi, no DurgA/PArvati. I do not have to talk about Saraswati.

Vishnu is minor God in RigVeda? Are you kidding?

RV 1.22.21- Rishi MEdhAtithi KANva:
TadvishnO paramam padam sadA pashyanti sUrayah divIva chakshurAtatam

English:
The wise (not worldly but spiritual) always contemplate that supreme abode of Vishnu as the eye fixed in broad heaven

It is not without reason the Rishi uttered this hymn. This hymn should tell you "what" Vishnu means.

And also understand this:

He who is Vishnu is Indra, is Rudra and is Agni and SUrya.
 
Apr 2019
410
India
i impossible that IVC preserved elements of its religion that were integrated later in the vedic pantheon .. i know that in the rigveda vishnu used to be a minor god , but personally i don't know whether he was originally in the aryan pantheon or a local god ..
Vishnu of Vedas is not Vishnu of Puranic Hinduism.
Though the name remained same their concepts are totally different.
In Vedas the concept of Vishnu has been modelled after solar noon and he is just a minor God.
But in later day Hinduism Vishnu became one of the supreme deity and his concept has been modelled mostly after Indra of Vedas.
Vishnu's relationship with Indra is even more evident in Indian epic Mahabharat where Krishna & Arjuna's relationship and exploits are modelled after poetic concepts of 'dark' Indra & 'light' Indra of Vedas.
Interestingly in Indian mythology there were many efforts of dislodging Vedic Indra from spot of 'supreme' God. Indra was demoted to the position of demi God and he was made subservient of Vishnu. That's why in mythological tales Indra is always running to Vishnu for begging assistance in war against Asuras. In one of legends of Krishna he famously stops natives of Vrindavan from praying to lord Indra and saves his villagers from Indra's wrath. It's assumed that this trend was started by decendents of historical Krishna(personally I think he was a historical person, offcourse sans supernatural powers). Though festival of honouring Indra was also observed in early Islamic period but now it has completely disappeared. Indian festivals like Deepawali were observed since Vedic era but later they were attached to legends of Vishnu.
Poetic tradition of Vedas had vanished millennials ago though the tradition ritualistic recital of collected hymns is still going on.
 
Apr 2019
410
India
a Krishna type imagery from IVC

View attachment 20898

probably the deity next to krishna type imagery is an avatar of vishnu

Krishna slaying a horse demon, Gandhara

View attachment 20899

Indus copper plate which has interpreted as evidence of Vaishnavism

https://archive.org/stream/CompositeAntrhomorphicFigureFromHaryanaPragdharaSKManjul/Composite Antrhomorphic figure from Haryana (Pragdhara) - SK Manjul_djvu.txt

http://www.jorhsa.com/Edition_2015/Copper.pdf

View attachment 20900

Varaha (the boar-headed Vishnu avatar), on a Gurjara-Pratihara coin. 850–900 CE. British Museum.

Gurjara-Pratihara dynasty - Wikipedia

very similar imagery from IVC as well

View attachment 20901

some of the earliest hindu temples have been declared Vishnu temples as well

elliptical Hindu temples with mandapa from Nagari, Chittorgarh and Vidisha near Heliodorus pillar have been dated to 4th century BC or 350-300 BC.[33][34].

These are all vishnu temples



View attachment 20902

Pitture rupestri dell'India Centrale, di Giancarlo Mauri

unknown date probably much earlier than historic periods

regards

I also think Vaishnavism and Shaivism are much more older but all of above images don't indicate anything. Those are simply depiction of hunting and ritual sacrifices. Though the sitting posture of the horned man is undoubtly a Yogic posture and it makes repeated appearances in Indus seals. Yogic postures were certainly not invented in 9th and 10th century or worse by the Europeans. ;)
 
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Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,579
USA
Vishnu of Vedas is not Vishnu of Puranic Hinduism.
Though the name remained same their concepts are totally different.
In Vedas the concept of Vishnu has been modelled after solar noon and he is just a minor God.
But in later day Hinduism Vishnu became one of the supreme deity and his concept has been modelled mostly after Indra of Vedas.
Vishnu's relationship with Indra is even more evident in Indian epic Mahabharat where Krishna & Arjuna's relationship and exploits are modelled after poetic concepts of 'dark' Indra & 'light' Indra of Vedas.
Interestingly in Indian mythology there were many efforts of dislodging Vedic Indra from spot of 'supreme' God. Indra was demoted to the position of demi God and he was made subservient of Vishnu. That's why in mythological tales Indra is always running to Vishnu for begging assistance in war against Asuras. In one of legends of Krishna he famously stops natives of Vrindavan from praying to lord Indra and saves his villagers from Indra's wrath. It's assumed that this trend was started by decendents of historical Krishna(personally I think he was a historical person, offcourse sans supernatural powers). Though festival of honouring Indra was also observed in early Islamic period but now it has completely disappeared. Indian festivals like Deepawali were observed since Vedic era but later they were attached to legends of Vishnu.
Poetic tradition of Vedas had vanished millennials ago though the tradition ritualistic recital of collected hymns is still going on.
Absolutely not. Puranic Vishnu is no different from Vedic Vishnu. If Vedic Vishnu was just modeled on Solar noon, we would not have had a hymn like 1.22. Vishnu's trivikrama act in Puranas is description of the same in Rig Veda.

Not just in Puranas, even in Rig Veda Vishnu helps Indra. And no, by no means is Vishnu a minor God in Vedas.

We do not need a better seer than Rishi DIrghatamas who proclaimed that it is the same God with different names.
 
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Aupmanyav

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Jun 2014
5,786
New Delhi, India
Trivikrama act was done by many deities. And when the Vedic rishis praised their deities, they made them the best of all.
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,579
USA
I have done that many a times, but it does not register with you. So, here is it again:
What many times? As far as I remember this is the first time the two of us had discussion about Trivikrama.

Let's get to the details:

RV 5.81.3 (Rishi ShyAvAshva Atreya, Devata:Savita, Chandah:Jagati)

yasya prayANamanvanya idyayurdEvA dEvasa mahimAnamOjasA
yah pArthivAni vimamE sa yEtashO rajAmsi dEvah savitA mahitvanA

English:
After the passage of which divine being the other deities proceed to obtain majesty with power;
he who by his greatness has created and divided the terrestrial regions, the divine Savitr is resplendent.

As we see in this hymn, Savitr has created and divided the terrestrial regions. The world view of the Rig Vedic seers was that it was divided into three: Prithvi, antariksha and dyau. This hymn is talking about this aspect, and yes, the three steps of Vishnu were nothing but these worlds, and as I said previously Vishnu is Rudra, Indra, Agni and SUrya/Savitr. But the point is that each hymn addresses a certain aspect, and this hymn does not address the three strides of Vishnu. Moreover, this hymn does not talk about any netherworld as I can see.

Now let's see RV1.35.6 (Rishi HiraNyastUpa Angirasa, Devata: Savita, Chandah: Trishtup):

tisrO dyAvah saviturdvA upasthA ekA yamasya bhuvanE virAshAt
ANIm na rathyamamrtAdhi tasthuriha bravItu ya u tacchikEtat

English:
There are three worlds two of which are in the proximity of the Savitr; the remaining one leads men to Yama's abode;
the immortality depends upon Savitr as a chariot on the pin of the axle. Let him who knows the greatness of Savitr describe.

I believe this hymn is talking about different planes of existence, which in Vedic parlance is three worlds or three heavens. Most of the people who die take the PitryAna, the route of their ancestors, and that is what is the abode of Yama. The only chosen few attain liberation and take the DevayAna route and reach Brahma Loka (or VaikunTa or KailAsa). I am not sure about the second heaven.

The focus of the hymn is not about any region on the Earth, certainly not Arctic. And most certainly it is not related to Trivikrama act.If any is the abode of Vishnu that his third stride is, it is not the Yama's abode. Instead it should be the parama pada or Brahma Loka.

I will post about other points in your text file later.