Fact Checking Columbus

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,355
Spain
#21
@Marttin 76 .

Christopher Columbus was looking for the Indies, and thought he had found them when he first made landfall on SanSalvador, in the Bahamas. That is why he called the inhabitants 'indios' He never set foot on the American mainland. He found 'the New world' by accident. This occurred because he had underestimated the circumference of the world.
I agree. As Fleming and the Penicilin..but for the accident.. it is necessary to be there... Fleming and Colón were!


The destruction the Spanish caused to the indigenous peoples discovered has been dealt with in a great a great many books,
You should add PROTESTANT books... and Las Casas... a SOLDIER and then a Friar.. and a professional liar and slave holder. Of course, there were excesses.. that Crown condemned (Elisabeth Last Will 1504, Laws of Burgos, 1512, trial to Colón)...but not a deliberate act of elimination...and of course, we should talk about the CARIBES... yes because the Protestant, Comunist, Freemasons books don´t talk about them or they said... CARIBES were a gang of pacifist Hippies made love and not war... I would like very very much one day that people find true Caribes...and we see if they change their mind and say.. oh my God...Come the Conquistadores, please! Caribes were anthropophagous ... they only ate human flesh. Their Razzias were organized to hunt human for eating...Compare to them, US or Australian serial killers .. are a band of innocent little angels ... some cherubs ...

Nor you nor me were there to judge them. No matter, what Freemasons, Comunist or Protestant said... For me, it is more important the indians saw Spaniards as liberators against the Caribes´ ruling Terror.





From our position, the Spanish empire of fifteenth century can be seen as pernicious, avaricious and brutal. I think that perspective is a bit simplistic .These events need to be assessed within the context of the times, and the people involved.
Yes I agree with you but if we add "our Protestant, Comunist and Freemason opinon"...and we add after Brutal "however, the Caribes, the Aztecs, Aymaras, Quechuas, Charruas, Guaraníes, Tupis, Agua-Omagua, Carijonas etc etc"... were hippies, pacifist, vegetarians, vegans till the Spanish Monsters arrived there... breaking the "Paradise"...still it is better. To watch a youtuber judging them from a house in America that he has because they preceded him ... it is ashamed and disgusted.

I agree with your post in your general lines. Around 70%.

Regards

By the way.. why is this thread in South America? Colón arrived to North America.
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,477
Portugal
#22
He never set foot on the American mainland.
As a side note, and I see this written too many times, that is not exactly correct to say: Columbus reached Caribbean Islands in the first and second voyage, but in the third and fourth he reached the American mainland.

This Wikipedia article has a map that can give us an overall idea: Voyages of Christopher Columbus - Wikipedia
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#23
As a side note, and I see this written too many times, that is not exactly correct to say: Columbus reached Caribbean Islands in the first and second voyage, but in the third and fourth he reached the American mainland.

This Wikipedia article has a map that can give us an overall idea: Voyages of Christopher Columbus - Wikipedia

I stand corrected. I was lazy.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,442
San Antonio, Tx
#24
The blog post lacks balance. Columbus was a revered historical figure for hundreds of years and his star has fallen precipitously over the last few decades. You have exonerated Columbus of some of the common negative claims but fail to identify any of his accomplishments or address the strengths and weaknesses of his character that led to his achievements and failures.

Columbus managed to convince the monarchs of a war ravaged kingdom to finance a three ship expedition for an objective that had never been accomplished and successfully completed a round trip voyage. All judgments of Columbus and subsequent events should start with that acknowledgement.
Yes, I agree with this. I’m pretty sure Columbus would not be my best buddy today, but that’s not relevant.
 
Mar 2019
1,491
KL
#25
I agree that Columbus should be judged by the standards of his own time. By those standards Columbus was an idiot! Go east by sailing west?? Really?? Not to mention that anyone can see the world is flat. If it were round all the water in the oceans would run off. It's not just a simple argument that it LOOKS flat. Given the evidence, it's amazing that Queen Isabella financed him when his native Genova (Genoa) gave him the finger.

BTW the Llanos Estacado in western Texas is so flat, one could almost believe the world is flat ( and some do).
the guy was stupid even by modern standards, was warned by many people that the distance is greater than the idiot had imagined, secondly mistaking americans as indians. one had to be a special kind of idiot to do that. The guy also thought that he would keep what he looted but everything when to the spaniards and the idiot died poor.

regards
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,477
Portugal
#26
…secondly mistaking americans as indians. one had to be a special kind of idiot to do that.
He sailed west reached land thought that he was in the Indies (a vague geographical concept at the time), thought that his theory was correct, so why would be he idiot in this case? If he reached the Indies the inhabitants would be Indians. Couldn’t call them Americans, since Vespucci hadn’t reached the continent yet or made “famous”.
 
Aug 2013
155
Finland
#27
the guy was stupid even by modern standards, was warned by many people that the distance is greater than the idiot had imagined, secondly mistaking americans as indians. one had to be a special kind of idiot to do that. The guy also thought that he would keep what he looted but everything when to the spaniards and the idiot died poor.
The Earth's circumference was not known at the time, instead there were several estimates available. Columbus based his calculations on the estimation in Ptolemy's Geography, then only fairly recently translated into Latin. This estimation was off by about 10 000 km. But Columbus, who had never been to India, sailed west and reached land that according to his calculations could reasonably have been somewhere close to India. What exactly should have caused him to discard his earlier calculations based off a well-respected source?
 
Mar 2019
1,491
KL
#28
they would know india by its exports, their record of its trade, ports, geography, description of its people, clothing, languages, religions, kingdoms, neighbouring countries etc are you suggesting that they guy was not interested in even knowing this info before sailing, or was he trying to sail to a completely unknown land which he had no idea about?, where they landed probably was inhabited by tribal people who were probably not much engaged in trade and wa easily mistaken for india?

if columbus was sailing a thousand years earlier, one could have understood that but it was fifteenth century, dont really understand the reason for such an ignorance.

im not sure about europeans but earth circumference was pretty well known atleast in the east. esp by indians and arabs.

regards
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,477
Portugal
#29
they would know india by its exports, their record of its trade, ports, geography, description of its people, clothing, languages, religions, kingdoms, neighbouring countries etc are you suggesting that they guy was not interested in even knowing this info before sailing, or was he trying to sail to a completely unknown land which he had no idea about?, where they landed probably was inhabited by tribal people who were probably not much engaged in trade and wa easily mistaken for india?

if columbus was sailing a thousand years earlier, one could have understood that but it was fifteenth century, dont really understand the reason for such an ignorance.

im not sure about europeans but earth circumference was pretty well known atleast in the east. esp by indians and arabs.

regards
You are suffering from presentism here. India for the “Europeans” in the 15th century is not the India that you know today. It was a vague concept. Few “Europeans” had been there. Few direct information. The Arabs, or the Muslims in general, had much more direct information about the trade in the Indian Ocean. India or the Indies in the plural were vaguely all the territories around the Indian Ocean with uncertain limits. That concept lasted long. What is today Indonesia (Indo+nesia) was called The Dutch East Indies. For Portugal all the fortress and trade posts in the Indian Ocean were under the control of the Vice-king in the State of India during centuries, often including Macau and Timor. And you are aware that all the peoples in these vast areas had different stages of development, different languages, customs, ethnicities… and this is even after the voyage of Vasco da Gama that linked directly Europe to India, so imagine this before.

As for the real dimensions of the planet there were different theories. You know that sometimes people don’t want to face scientific facts: Even today there are denials of the global warming, the defenders of the flat planet, the hallow hearth…

Only with the first circum-navigation of the Planet, with the voyage of Magalhães-Elcano the last doubts we definitively empirically won (1519-1522).
 
Likes: martin76
Aug 2013
155
Finland
#30
Actually I made a classic mistake in my post, which I think is a usual myth about Columbus, apologies for that.

But Columbus wanted to find the east passage to the East Indies, not to India - meaning Indonesia and the Philippines from where a lot of valuable spices were imported.

EDITED: changed Indies to East Indies to be more precise, thank you Tulius.