Fall of Mohenjo Daro

Aug 2013
956
Italy
#21
Mohanjodaro (Moyan-jo-dero, I always want to put it like that, Mohanjodaro linguistically does not make any sense), was a trading town like Lothal. Trade in the East dwindled for some reason and that in West increased, Rakhigarhi, Kalibangan, etc. That I think is the reason for decline of Moyan-jo-dero, added perhaps by a pestilence (the 40 skeletons), and the city never recovered. Not any violence, IMHO.
Of the eight major IVC urban centres, was Mohenjo-Daro apparently the first to be deserted? I believe that, in order to better understand the IVC decline and disappearance, we must first establish a plausible chronology for the abandonment of these cities. The factors which affected Mohenjo-Daro would probably, eventually, have influenced the other urban centres. As with Mycenaean territory, we must consider each major site, not only in isolation but also in relation to its neighbours, in order to determine what were the factors causing individual destruction/abandonment as well as the more general phenomenon of the fall of an entire civilization.

Thus, it seems to me that we must consider the end of Mohenjo-Daro from a more panoramic view, carefully examining its relations with the other IVC centres and with foreign powers, as well as the gradual drying up of Saraswati which might have provoked the universal decline of the Indus-Saraswati Civilization. All of the IVC sites shared extremely similar cultural manifestations; they may have been ruled from one centre, and thus, what affected one city would unavoidably have affected the others. Especially if Saraswati, and not Indus, had been the sacred river of this civilization.
 
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Nov 2016
1,531
Indus Valley, Pakistan
#22
Of the eight major IVC urban centres, was Mohenjo-Daro apparently the first to be deserted? I believe that, in order to better understand the IVC decline and disappearance, we must first establish a plausible chronology for the abandonment of these cities. The factors which affected Mohenjo-Daro would probably, eventually, have influenced the other urban centres. As with Mycenaean territory, we must consider each major site, not only in isolation but also in relation to its neighbours, in order to determine what were the factors causing individual destruction/abandonment as well as the more general phenomenon of the fall of an entire civilization.

Thus, it seems to me that we must consider the end of Mohenjo-Daro from a more panoramic view, carefully examining its relations with the other IVC centres and with foreign powers, as well as the gradual drying up of Saraswati which might have provoked the universal decline of the Indus-Saraswati Civilization. All of the IVC sites shared extremely similar cultural manifestations; they may have been ruled from one centre, and thus, what affected one city would unavoidably have affected the others. Especially if Saraswati, and not Indus, had been the sacred river of this civilization.
Oh gawd. Saraswati? Why are we South Asian's incapable of looking at history without scriptures or fables? Don't take this as offence (it applies Indians/Paks living even in Italy or the West) as much in South Asia. What did I say about "fables, legends, tales, stories from scripture" in my earlier post?

A appropriate rebuttal of the "the legend of Saraswati" below.

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
 
Aug 2013
956
Italy
#23
Oh gawd. Saraswati? Why are we South Asian's incapable of looking at history without scriptures or fables? Don't take this as offence (it applies Indians/Paks living even in Italy or the West) as much in South Asia. What did I say about "fables, legends, tales, stories from scripture" in my earlier post?

A appropriate rebuttal of the "the legend of Saraswati" below.

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
But Saraswati is not a fable or legend. Saraswati is a reality that has left its mark on prehistory and on the memory of man.

The fact that this river has ENTERED fable and legend does not make it any less real than Mount Olympus or Mycenae or the ancient Celtic castles, all of which have been lauded in the "tales and stories" which you dismiss as being without basis. As I have commented on other IVC threads, in every legend or myth there is at least a kernel of fact.
 
Jun 2012
1,780
chandigarh
#24
Oh gawd. Saraswati? Why are we South Asian's incapable of looking at history without scriptures or fables? Don't take this as offence (it applies Indians/Paks living even in Italy or the West) as much in South Asia. What did I say about "fables, legends, tales, stories from scripture" in my earlier post?

A appropriate rebuttal of the "the legend of Saraswati" below.

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1688.full.pdf
So if some thing is stated in vedas you should'nt look for it. because it is myth. So why then accept Aryan Invasion theory (While it is theory and not fact: Because there is conclusive evidence over it). Because most things about aryan invasion theory comes from vedas(Those fabbles and legend). If you are so willing to accept those fables and legend why are you so keen to simply to forgo other fabbles and legend. Is'nt that hypocrisy.
 

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,645
USA
#25
Of the eight major IVC urban centres, was Mohenjo-Daro apparently the first to be deserted? I believe that, in order to better understand the IVC decline and disappearance, we must first establish a plausible chronology for the abandonment of these cities. The factors which affected Mohenjo-Daro would probably, eventually, have influenced the other urban centres. As with Mycenaean territory, we must consider each major site, not only in isolation but also in relation to its neighbours, in order to determine what were the factors causing individual destruction/abandonment as well as the more general phenomenon of the fall of an entire civilization.

Thus, it seems to me that we must consider the end of Mohenjo-Daro from a more panoramic view, carefully examining its relations with the other IVC centres and with foreign powers, as well as the gradual drying up of Saraswati which might have provoked the universal decline of the Indus-Saraswati Civilization. All of the IVC sites shared extremely similar cultural manifestations; they may have been ruled from one centre, and thus, what affected one city would unavoidably have affected the others. Especially if Saraswati, and not Indus, had been the sacred river of this civilization.
There is no such thing as "Indus-Saraswati Civilization". It has not been mentioned in academic Indian history books. It is all cooked up by Hindu extremists (Hindutva) for religious agendas. Please leave this Saraswati thingy out of IVC discussions.
 
Sep 2014
869
Texas
#26
I am going to ask a question. Please note it is not a a statement of fact.I remember reading or maybe watching a show on the Indus Valley civilizations and how people thought they were cursed sights. My thoughts were that if as the narrator was saying a meteor strike(nuclear explosion) affected the region in the distant past. Could these two cities be the basis for Sodom and Gomorrah.?
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,374
New Delhi, India
#27
And Mohenjo Daro is exactly 3,200 feet from River Indus. Check out the Google Earth imagery.
What I said about your Middle-Eastern fixation was as much in fun. Did not you notice the big grin? I would not go as far as Babylon but I think people on this or that side of Suleiman mountains were regularly going across. Their language, culture was not very different. People before the Aryans also were doing it as Aryans did it later (and now the Taliban are doing it :D). However, Indus being 3,200 feet from Moyan-jo-dero* does not guarantee that it was always at that distance in history. I have checked Google Earth quite minutely. IMHO, it certainly was around Nawabshah at one time (Chanhudaro is 10 kms from Nawabshah). Moreover, we are always looking to the NorthWest for invaders, what if they came across the Suleiman mountains?
* Do you like my interpretation of the name?
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,374
New Delhi, India
#28
As with Mycenaean territory, we must consider each major site, not only in isolation but also in relation to its neighbours, in order to determine what were the factors causing individual destruction/abandonment as well as the more general phenomenon of the fall of an entire civilization.
Good idea, but do we have clear data? Chanhudaro was post-Juker settlement. Some information here:

"They also note that the term "Integration Era" may not be applicable to the whole of South Asia for the period of the Mature Harappan Civilisation, because "large swathes of northern and southern South Asia were unaffected by what was, on a subcontinental scale, a regional feature."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodisation_of_the_Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Regionalisation_Era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perio...ey_Civilisation#Concordance_of_periodisations

(1,900 BC seems to be very important everywhere. Something very consequental must have happened at that time. Furthermore, Bhirrana seems to be as old as Mehrgarh)
Because most things about an Aryan invasion theory comes from Vedas (those fables and legend).
RigVeda does not mention any invasion at all.
Oh gawd. Saraswati?
Yeah, Saraswti. At one time they even termed River Arghandab as Harahvaiti. Arghandhab also is not a mighty river. May be Saraswati was not such a mighty river as in the imagination of Aryans, but there is a huge concentration of Harappan age sites along a particular line. These were the rivers which fed Aryans at different times, so they venerated them - and called them as their beloved mythological river Saraswati in gratitude. Hindus picked up their love for Saraswati from Aryans and they worship it till now and will continue to do so in future. :D


Soldiers crossing Arghandhab river. :D

"Sarasvatī is derived from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sáras-vat-ī (and earlier, PIE *séles-u̯n̥t-ih₂), meaning ‘marshy, full of pools’, or ‘she with many lakes’. The other term -vatī is the Sanskrit grammatical feminine possessor suffix.

Sanskrit sáras means ‘pool, pond or lake’; the feminine sarasī́ means ‘stagnant pool, swamp’. Like its cognates Welsh hêl, heledd ‘river meadow’ and Greek ἕλος (hélos) ‘swamp’, the Rigvedic term refers mostly to stagnant waters, and Mayrhofer considers unlikely a connection with the root *sar- ‘run, flow’.

Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river. In the younger Avesta, Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River#Etymology

Aup adds: Receding last Glaciation left such lakes and marshes all over Eurasia. Saraswati in Afghanistan and India is but a memory of that time.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,374
New Delhi, India
#29
I am going to ask a question. Please note it is not a a statement of fact.I remember reading or maybe watching a show on the Indus Valley civilizations and how people thought they were cursed sights. My thoughts were that if as the narrator was saying a meteor strike (nuclear explosion) affected the region in the distant past. Could these two cities be the basis for Sodom and Gomorrah?
We were never as good at things as the people of Sodom and Ghomorrah. And curses do not work all the time. Jesus cursed Bathsaida, Chorazin and Capernaum. They should have had, but did not suffer the fate (worse than) Sodom and Ghomorrah. :D

There is no evidentiary crater in that region. There is one in Maharashtra (Lonar Lake) but that happened much earlier.
 
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Aug 2013
956
Italy
#30
Good idea, but do we have clear data? Chanhudaro was post-Juker settlement. Some information here:

"They also note that the term "Integration Era" may not be applicable to the whole of South Asia for the period of the Mature Harappan Civilisation, because "large swathes of northern and southern South Asia were unaffected by what was, on a subcontinental scale, a regional feature."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodisation_of_the_Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Regionalisation_Era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perio...ey_Civilisation#Concordance_of_periodisations

(1,900 BC seems to be very important everywhere. Something very consequental must have happened at that time. Furthermore, Bhirrana seems to be as old as Mehrgarh)
RigVeda does not mention any invasion at all.
Yeah, Saraswti. At one time they even termed River Arghandab as Harahvaiti. Arghandhab also is not a mighty river. May be Saraswati was not such a mighty river as in the imagination of Aryans, but there is a huge concentration of Harappan age sites along a particular line. These were the rivers which fed Aryans at different times, so they venerated them - and called them as their beloved mythological river Saraswati in gratitude. Hindus picked up their love for Saraswati from Aryans and they worship it till now and will continue to do so in future. :D


Soldiers crossing Arghandhab river. :D

"Sarasvatī is derived from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sáras-vat-ī (and earlier, PIE *séles-u̯n̥t-ih₂), meaning ‘marshy, full of pools’, or ‘she with many lakes’. The other term -vatī is the Sanskrit grammatical feminine possessor suffix.

Sanskrit sáras means ‘pool, pond or lake’; the feminine sarasī́ means ‘stagnant pool, swamp’. Like its cognates Welsh hêl, heledd ‘river meadow’ and Greek ἕλος (hélos) ‘swamp’, the Rigvedic term refers mostly to stagnant waters, and Mayrhofer considers unlikely a connection with the root *sar- ‘run, flow’.

Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river. In the younger Avesta, Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River#Etymology

Aup adds: Receding last Glaciation left such lakes and marshes all over Eurasia. Saraswati in Afghanistan and India is but a memory of that time.
Dear Aupmanyav,

I have agreed with you on so many points in the past; but I really must disagree on the etymology of Saraswati which you propose.

It is evident that in India pools, ponds, marshes and similar small bodies of water are not venerated or invoked as rivers are...

"Saras", in my very humble opinion, referred originally to FLOWING bodies of water, from the PIE root "ser-", to flow. As I explained on the Aryan Migration Theory thread, it is awkward to interpret Saraswati as meaning "possessing lakes/ponds"...Because if such lakes or ponds existed, they would have been only remnants of the river, not the mighty river itself. We must always bear in mind that it was precisely this mighty RIVER which was venerated, and described in all of its pristeen glory, not any lakes or ponds derived from or associated with it. Even if we are to stretch the meaning of both saras- and -vati, and translate Saraswati as "endowed with water", this is too banal because all rivers are obviously endowed with water. I remain convinced that the powerful flow and continuous undulation of Saraswati are stressed in its own name, which, if we follow the ancient PIE etymology instead of the more recent Indo-Iranian or Sanskrit, comes from "ser-", to flow, and "-uat" , to curve. Honestly I cannot see how mere ponds and marshes could have contributed toward forming the name Saraswati, which to the IVC populations probably represented the "River of rivers".

A mighty monarch is not described for the courtiers who surround him, nor for the meager relics of a lost splendour, but rather for the magnificence which he possesses at the height of his power. So it is that Saraswati is remembered today in the Vedas and other ancient literature.
 

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