Franks in Britain

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,624
Sydney
#1
I've wondered about the Franks not moving into Britain ,
the place was ripe for the picking
there was no Roman garrison and serious security issues
the Franks had some credentials as Roman compatible
they even had the grudging approval of the Christian church as the lesser evil

it could easily have made Britain into Frankia !
 
Nov 2010
7,336
Cornwall
#2
Not really my bag but the obvious answer is that it was the sphere of Saxons and others. And that the Franks had enough to focus on to the south and west (and east for that matter)

But given that cohesion among these peoples was only periodically guaranteed and looking at the ruthlessness of Clovis, I find it hard to believe that a group or 2 didn't move across the channel. Or even get stuck whilst raiding

But it's not likely we will ever know.

If you look at the Carolingians when the Saxon kingdoms were established - again it was more about getting all the alliances you could - with trouble on all sides, not least from Vikings
 

authun

Ad Honorem
Aug 2011
4,951
#3
The Salian Franks were settled by the Romans within the Limes in Toxandria and as the empire collapsed, they expanded southwards initially. They expanded their control towards the coast later, where they encountered other north sea germans who had settled in places like Pas de Calais. When they accepted the frankish overlordship, the Franks automatically claimed hegemony over East Kent, leading to the hypothesis that there was an early germanic kingdom on either side of the channel at one time. East Kent expanded to incorporate West Kent and the Kingdom of Kent was formed. This Kingdom had firm diplomatic ties with the Franks.

During the roman period however, there are reports of Franks being chased through the streets of London. They may have been supporters of Carausius, a Menapian who had been tasked by Rome to build a fleet to deal with the Franks who had been raiding the gallic coast. The story is however that he struck a deal with the Franks, split the loot and sailed with them and his fleet to Britain, where he declared himself emperor.


Location of Toxandria:

 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,624
Sydney
#4
Interesting on the early contacts
make plenty of sense too
as for the Saxons , I'm under the impression that they were invited as mercenaries to protect what was left of roman Britain
their reputation was , rightly , quite dire maybe they were just cheaper

the Franks with a bit of diplomacy could have fulfilled this role even better
 
Nov 2010
7,336
Cornwall
#5
It was a funny old world. I've read of a village near Ferrol in Northern Spain populated by a boatload or 2 of Anglo-Roman immigrants from Devon/Cornwall avoiding the spread westward of the Saxons. It was in a recent Spanish ancient history book. No other reference and it is to be assumed that they lived under the Visigoths without incident. Just goes to show that trade routes are always active and people quite capable of moving about without higher authority in that day and age. The only 2 possibilities are that they had such a fear they just had to get out and hoped for the best, or more likely some trader said 'come over here with us, nice little place'!!
 
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Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
3,485
Dispargum
#6
It's less about the Franks not going to Britain and more why didn't the Saxons go to Gaul. Gaul was wealthier. The Saxons first tried to settle in Gaul and only switched to Britain when their efforts in Gaul failed. There were Saxon settlements in Calais, Bayonne, and Nantes, possibly elsewhere. The Franks didn't go to Britain because they found what they were looking for in Gaul.

Frankish settlements in Gaul long pre-date the Roman abandonment of Britain. First Frankish settlements in Gaul were in the mid-3rd century with additional migration added in the 4th century. The last wave of Frankish migration may have been in the final years of Attila and Aetius by which time Britain was wide open, but the Franks east of the Rhine no longer lived on the coast of the North Sea and were no longer a maritime people.
 
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authun

Ad Honorem
Aug 2011
4,951
#7
It was a funny old world. I've read of a village near Ferrol in Northern Spain populated by a boatload or 2 of Anglo-Roman immigrants from Devon/Cornwall avoiding the spread westward of the Saxons. It was in a recent Spanish ancient history book. No other reference and it is to be assumed that they lived under the Visigoths without incident. Just goes to show that trade routes are always active and people quite capable of moving about without higher authority in that day and age. The only 2 possibilities are that they had such a fear they just had to get out and hoped for the best, or more likely some trader said 'come over here with us, nice little place'!!

Yes britons did settle in Galicia in the same way that they did in Amorica, although tere it was in large enough numbers to change the language from gallic to brittonic and change the name to Britanny. The british colony in Galicia is often referred to as Britonia:

List of Celtic place names in Galicia - Wikipedia
 

authun

Ad Honorem
Aug 2011
4,951
#8
It's less about the Franks not going to Britain and more why didn't the Saxons go to Gaul. Gaul was wealthier. The Saxons first tried to settle in Gaul and only switched to Britain when their efforts in Gaul failed. There were Saxon settlements in Calais, Bayonne, and Nantes, possibly elsewhere. The Franks didn't go to Britain because they found what they were looking for in Gaul.
The saxons in Pas de Calais and around Bayeaux did become permanent settlements but they were subsumed later. I think the Saxones Baiocassenses , mentioned by Gregory of Tours were settled there as laeti by the romans. The Loire Saxons, around Angers under Eadwacer were ejected by Childeric I.
 

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,632
Lorraine tudesque
#9
The Salian Franks were settled by the Romans within the Limes in Toxandria and as the empire collapsed, they expanded southwards initially. They expanded their control towards the coast later, where they encountered other north sea germans who had settled in places like Pas de Calais. When they accepted the frankish overlordship, the Franks automatically claimed hegemony over East Kent, leading to the hypothesis that there was an early germanic kingdom on either side of the channel at one time. East Kent expanded to incorporate West Kent and the Kingdom of Kent was formed. This Kingdom had firm diplomatic ties with the Franks.

During the roman period however, there are reports of Franks being chased through the streets of London. They may have been supporters of Carausius, a Menapian who had been tasked by Rome to build a fleet to deal with the Franks who had been raiding the gallic coast. The story is however that he struck a deal with the Franks, split the loot and sailed with them and his fleet to Britain, where he declared himself emperor.


Location of Toxandria:

Coins of the Kingdom of Kent where found in this roman funeral which the Franks used as a watch tower.

Category:Caveau gallo-romain (Bech-Kleinmacher) - Wikimedia Commons
 
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authun

Ad Honorem
Aug 2011
4,951
#10
Coins of the Kingdom of Kent where found in this roman funeral which the Franks used as a watch tower.

Category:Caveau gallo-romain (Bech-Kleinmacher) - Wikimedia Commons
Do you know what the context or date was? The first kingdom in Kent was that of the Cantiaci and they minted coins based on the gaulish coins. Then there were roman coins but I don't think there are any coins from the jutish period. We do see them in the 7th century though when relations with the Franks are well established.

688 - Anglo-Saxon, Kent, Eadbald (616-40), gold Thrymsa or Shilling, C...
 

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