Fraxinetum - Fraxinet - garde-freinet - need info on the state of the fort before the moorish invasion

Jun 2019
16
chilliwack bc canada
johnincornwall - good points

i think fréjus is another variation on the latin root fraxinus and this was the roman convention for naming forts on the frontier - there are still walls and bldgs of the roman fort that was there - historians tell us the city's modern name is a contraction of the original "Forum Julii" named by julius caesar but i dont buy it - frejus just fits too well with my theory that fortress settlements were each given a unique name loosely based on "fraxinus" for spear

Invasions des Sarrazins en France, par Joseph Toussaint Reinaud:
"En 940, Fréjus, ville alors assez considérable, parce que les navires continuaient encore à entrer dans son port, fut tellement maltraitée par les Sarrazins, que la population entière fut obligée de s’expatrier, et qu’il n’y resta pas même de traces des propriétés. Il en fut de même de Toulon, aujourd’hui l’effroi des barbares. Les chrétiens placés entre la mer et les Alpes abandonnèrent leurs demeures et se réfugièrent au haut des montagnes."

the main consensus as to who the "invaders" were - and i agree, terms are very iffy but they referred to them as "pirates" - there are revisionists such as mohammad ballan that have tried to present a case for all being mujahadeen on jihad at least part-time but that is not what they were originally described as

but there would be sure to have been at least a few of these pirates who were islamists as they sent for and received re-reinforcements from al-andalus - many historians say there was most likely also europeans, maybe africans too, in the pirate group and i believe there was at least one french christian

we know from accounts that they were forced ashore in the st tropez golfe by a storm and there are reports that have survived for some strange reason and that get constantly repeated that at one time there were unarmed muslims and christians working together at fraxinetum - this seems strange but i think it points to a different story than the one given by the invaders

we also know that this was a time of upheavals and minor battles all around fraxinet - hungarians were pushing into territory to the east and al-andaluse was still raiding to the west so it makes no sense that the ppl of fraxinetum were not prepared for and even expecting incursions and very likely still inhabited and used fort fraxinet - a frontal attack by 20 would be unlikely to succeed

i think the group of thugs included a french or two as he or they would have been essential to being accepted into the community after they were rescued from shipwreck by the locals

this is pure speculation of course but it makes as much sense as allah granting super powers so that one man can chase a thousand and two can chase ten thousand and then build a fortress in their spare time - the fort was already there and it was taken by subterfuge and treachery which is the modus operandi used according to arab records to overcome the entire region, making allies and then betraying them
 
Jun 2019
16
chilliwack bc canada
i posted the extract from Joseph Toussaint Reinaud above mainly because it states that the inhabitants of the coast fled north into the heights of the mountains for safety from the attacks - i have read this elsewhere and i think it helps to confirm that the people of fraxinatum did the same - the book by Reinaud can be read online

i searched for the name frejus in the alps and found a pass by that name, Col de Fréjus, 200 km north near the italian border - this cannot possibly be a coincidence

the name has also been transmitted to a college in the italian town of bardonecchia which is in the pass and probably other things in the area - there might also be a town by that name in the area tho it doesnt come up in search engines
 

Attachments

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,074
Lorraine tudesque
All nice and well. But me think that Fraxinet, fraissinet, frêne, is just meaning Ash tree. Or a place with Ash trees.
 
Jun 2019
16
chilliwack bc canada
The fact that the name comes from "fraxinatum" suggests it has been the name of a location before the name of a family. Moreover, family names come most often from location names, much more than the contrary. Family names have been given to location but at a mre recent period.
i think that "fraxinet" was the original name given by the romans to the fort and "fraxinetum" is the name of the town that grew up around the fort - the same situation is repeated near grenoble with "le freynet" - its interesting that he fact that the origin of the family name is not from le freynet but the area of the high plateau nearby

when the people of fraxinetum withdrew to the mountains, they set up a defensive area called freynet and le freynet was founded nearby - they could have had years and even decades before incursions reached that far - there could even have been defensive structures built on the plateau, probably buildings that also act as a wall - might be worth getting an archeological dig happening there in fact
 
Jun 2019
16
chilliwack bc canada
All nice and well. But me think that Fraxinet, fraissinet, frêne, is just meaning Ash tree. Or a place with Ash trees.
i would agree except that there are no ash in the area of fraxinetum and probably never have been - the climate and soil favor other species

"La végétation en Provence – Alpes – Côte d’Azur
La forêt méditerranéenne, fragile, est dominée par les pins d’Alep et les chênes à feuilles persistantes (chêne vert, chêne-liège). Le chêne pubescent, à feuilles caduques, tend à s’imposer entre 400 et 1 000 m."
Climat et végétation de la Région Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur - alloweekend.com
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,754
Cornwall
johnincornwall - good points

i think fréjus is another variation on the latin root fraxinus and this was the roman convention for naming forts on the frontier - there are still walls and bldgs of the roman fort that was there - historians tell us the city's modern name is a contraction of the original "Forum Julii" named by julius caesar but i dont buy it - frejus just fits too well with my theory that fortress settlements were each given a unique name loosely based on "fraxinus" for spear

Invasions des Sarrazins en France, par Joseph Toussaint Reinaud:
"En 940, Fréjus, ville alors assez considérable, parce que les navires continuaient encore à entrer dans son port, fut tellement maltraitée par les Sarrazins, que la population entière fut obligée de s’expatrier, et qu’il n’y resta pas même de traces des propriétés. Il en fut de même de Toulon, aujourd’hui l’effroi des barbares. Les chrétiens placés entre la mer et les Alpes abandonnèrent leurs demeures et se réfugièrent au haut des montagnes."

the main consensus as to who the "invaders" were - and i agree, terms are very iffy but they referred to them as "pirates" - there are revisionists such as mohammad ballan that have tried to present a case for all being mujahadeen on jihad at least part-time but that is not what they were originally described as

but there would be sure to have been at least a few of these pirates who were islamists as they sent for and received re-reinforcements from al-andalus - many historians say there was most likely also europeans, maybe africans too, in the pirate group and i believe there was at least one french christian

we know from accounts that they were forced ashore in the st tropez golfe by a storm and there are reports that have survived for some strange reason and that get constantly repeated that at one time there were unarmed muslims and christians working together at fraxinetum - this seems strange but i think it points to a different story than the one given by the invaders

we also know that this was a time of upheavals and minor battles all around fraxinet - hungarians were pushing into territory to the east and al-andaluse was still raiding to the west so it makes no sense that the ppl of fraxinetum were not prepared for and even expecting incursions and very likely still inhabited and used fort fraxinet - a frontal attack by 20 would be unlikely to succeed

i think the group of thugs included a french or two as he or they would have been essential to being accepted into the community after they were rescued from shipwreck by the locals

this is pure speculation of course but it makes as much sense as allah granting super powers so that one man can chase a thousand and two can chase ten thousand and then build a fortress in their spare time - the fort was already there and it was taken by subterfuge and treachery which is the modus operandi used according to arab records to overcome the entire region, making allies and then betraying them
Ah yes I'd forgotten about the Magyars in this timescale too. Stopped by the defensive line of the Emirate of Cordoba like Lleida, Huesca, Barbastro etc - more lilely ran out of momentum at the same time and of course got a good whacking in Germany.

The scenario of pirates fits well. Though history (8th and 9th centuries) is clouded badly by the proud and glorious Caliphal stories eminating from 10th century Caliphate of Cordoba - and also it's equivalent Santiago stuff - the period from the loss of authority of the Abassids to the emergence of Abderraman III and his definitive Caliphate almost 200 years later seems anarchical, chaotic, all round. Horrible time to live it seems to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PaulFrey

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,074
Lorraine tudesque
i would agree except that there are no ash in the area of fraxinetum and probably never have been - the climate and soil favor other species

"La végétation en Provence – Alpes – Côte d’Azur
La forêt méditerranéenne, fragile, est dominée par les pins d’Alep et les chênes à feuilles persistantes (chêne vert, chêne-liège). Le chêne pubescent, à feuilles caduques, tend à s’imposer entre 400 et 1 000 m."
Climat et végétation de la Région Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur - alloweekend.com
Fraxinus angustifolia — Wikipédia
 
Jun 2019
16
chilliwack bc canada
there's the odd ash tree, but they do not predominate in the area of fraxinetum, all sources agree

your map actually argues against the name of ash for fraxinatum because if ash grows everywhere, why would you call a tiny dot on that sea of green "ash" unless there is a heavy predominance of that type of tree - and we know there is no such predominance
 
Jun 2019
16
chilliwack bc canada
i've been spending some time checking for ash in the area with google earth street view - the street view tracks run for a long way around the town so you can zoom in and identify trees quite easily - and the roads around fraxinetum are very narrow with trees crowding both sides

there are some beautiful ashes at garde-freinet especially at the entrance to the town - there's a beauty right behind the welcome sign - but these are obviously cultivated - evenly spaced along the roads - but they are still outnumbered by other types of trees and outside of the town, there is barely any to be found - the few that you do see are scrawny and far between
 

Attachments

Jan 2011
1,049
FRANCE
i think fréjus is another variation on the latin root fraxinus and this was the roman convention for naming forts on the frontier - there are still walls and bldgs of the roman fort that was there - historians tell us the city's modern name is a contraction of the original "Forum Julii" named by julius caesar but i dont buy it - frejus just fits too well with my theory that fortress settlements were each given a unique name loosely based on "fraxinus" for spear
I think there is a full consensus on the origin of Frejus name, as Pliny the Elder calls it "Forum Iulii Octavanorum colonia ".