FYROM and Ancient Macedonia

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Ari

Apr 2008
208
Hi, I just joined this forum because ive been talking to "macedonians" in another forum (topix), i am greek. i dont know if you guys realize how serious and ridiculous the propaganda is from these people. these guys accept NOTHING that goes against there beliefs and make up stories with no backing.

what id like to do is post some of their quotes here from topix.com and hopefully you guys can respond with what you think...the whole point of this is seeing what unbiased people think of there claims, id really really appreciate it

here are some quotes, id like to know if there is ANY truth to these, personally i think its sad-

"The thing is that the slavic languages have been used in the balkan since stone age.
The other slavic brancehs came out from the balkan not the other way around.
I know this goes against everithing you beleive in, but thats that. You can't argue with science.
Oh by the way this teory is becoming the mainstrem teory. So watch out, you'll need to demonstrait against wesetrners prety soon again."
(he is claiming ancient macedonians were the original slavs)

"Not one country in the Balkans can show one shred of evidence that the 'Slavs' invaded and assimilated anybody in Macedonia. In fact there is not more than 15% 'Slav' DNA in modern Macedonians and there is a higher proportion in modern greeks. Greeks are unable to explain what a 'Slav' is additionally, but know it has something to do with the area and the past. Greece also knows that Macedonians gave these 'Slavs' their alphabet and spread all the way to the top of Russia and that the alphabet is a mixture of early Macedonian and half a dozen Koine letters. This was used to bring Christianity to the 'Slavs"
this above quote pisses me off because ive done a DNA test at [SIZE=-1]www.DNAAncestryProject.com and i have ZERO slavic ancestors according to that test (and if you are wondering i have ZERO turkish ancestors as well), i find it funny that someone who lives the slav/bulgar culture, speaks the slav/bulgar language, etc. says that, its PURE propaganda[/SIZE]

"the modern Macedonian language is based on the ancient Macedonian Language"

"What is most interesting about Homer’s stories, especially the Iliad, is that they were originally written in the prehistoric Macedonian language. The first paleolinguist to openly proclaim the similarities between the words of the Iliad and those of the modern Slavic languages was the German Homerologist Pasov. Inspired by Pasov and others, researcher Odisej Belchevsky has furthered the study by clearly illustrating the fundamental relationship between the modern Macedonian language and the language of Homer.
“ In the Iliad and Odyssey, attributed to Homer, the great multitude of non-Greek people living around Olympus and further north in Europe were described as being as,‘Numerous as the leaves in the forests… with chariots and weapons decorated with gleaming gold and silver…like gods.’"

"the third languge on the rosetta stone is in macedonian"

this isnt a quote but they claim ALL bulgarian heroes as being macedonian before 50 years ago and they claim bulgarians to be lost macedonians


"Hey entatiki everything you just posted is all wrong nowhere in the ancient text do we have the word Greek. The malakas that translated the text f@cked up."
^^^ that is in response to this- (he refuses to believe ellinas/hellenes translates directly to greek in english)
1. Strabo (Ancient geographer):
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strab. VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
2. Arrian (Ancient Historian):
"He sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander, son of Phillip and the Greeks, save the Lacedaimonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia." (Arr. I, 16, 7 [Loeb, P. A. Brunt])
3. Alexander to Persians:
"Your ancestors (Persians) invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm though we had done them no prior injury;... I have been appointed hegemon of Greeks..."
Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II, 14, 4 (Loeb P.A. Brunt)
4. Herodotus (ancient historian)
"Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy Alexander I of Macedonia has received you hospitably."
(Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])
5. Isocrates
"It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race."
(Isoc., To Philip, 127 [Loeb])
6. Isocrates:
"Argos is the land of your fathers."
(Isoc., To Philip, 32 (Loeb, G. Norlin])
7. Alexander himself states that he is Greek like all Macedonians.
"For I Alexander myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery."
(Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])
8. Alexander the Great addressing the dead Hellenes after the battle of Chaeronia.
"Holy shadows of the dead, I'm not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad brothers if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions."
9. Plutarch(Alexander chpt. 16,95.2 and 91.5)
Also states the Macedonians are Greek
10. Aeschylus (Iketidai, 250)
Also states the Macedonians are Greek

fake DNA test coming out of FYROM-
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

Professional response-
"Even a cursory look at the papers diagrams and trees immediatly indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims.
They use a single genetic marker HLA DRB1 for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker particularly one likely to have undergone selection for the purpose of reconstructing geneologies is unreliable and unacceptable pratice in population genetics"
Neil Risch- Stanford University
Alberto Piazza- University of Torino
L. L. Carvalli Sforza- Stanford University
----------
A famous example of this is an international research paper published in August 2002 before being dropped and ridiculed due to its flawed research. It was devised by researchers (the team included some Macedonian Slavs) at the Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology in the Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain and claimed that Greeks (and Japanese) were shown to have genetic origins in Africa as opposed to Europe. Despite being initially published, the research was finally dismissed in the journal Nature by leading geneticists Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza:
"The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute." Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002)© Macmillan Publishers Ltd.
Ironically the Macedonians in the dropped research were found to be a pure race decended directly from the Ancient Macedonians.


ok i can keep searching that forum for pearler quotes but i cant be stuffed at the moment, thats enough for now, maybe i'll post more later.

id really appreciate any opinions on these above quotes by people who know their history and are unbiased, thanks
 
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Ari

Apr 2008
208
well here is another claim, i couldnt find a quote but anyway-

Greece changed the name of Solun to Thessaloniki in the 1900's

and another quote from a FYROMian-
"The ancient Greek historians clearly stated that the Macedonians were a separate people from the Hellenes. The Greek historian Arrian (I AD) wrote that there was a "racial rivalry" between the ancient Macedonians and the Greeks8)."

and here are some of arrians writings which clearly contradict him-

He also buried the Persian commanders and the Greek mercenaries who were killed fighting on the side of the enemy. But as many of them as he took prisoners he bound in fetters and sent them away to Macedonia to till the soil, because, though they were Greeks, they were fighting against Greece on behalf of the foreigners in opposition to the decrees which the Greeks had made in their federal council. To Athens also he sent 300 suits of Persian armour to be hung up in the Acropolis as a votive offering to Athena, and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them, "Alexander, son of Philip, and all the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians, present this offering from the spoils taken from the foreigners inhabiting Asia
  • Anabasis Alexandri I, 16, 7
Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you...
Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in Anabasis Alexandri by Arrian; translated as Anabasis of Alexander by P. A. Brunt, for the "Loeb Edition" Book II 14, 4

and here is an edited quote that historyofmacedonia.org (pro-fyrom site) has on there site from arrian-

FULL QUOTE-

Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they Darius!

Addressing his troops prior to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Issus"]Battle of Issus[/ame], as quoted in Anabasis Alexandri by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrian"]Arrian[/ame] Book II, 7

EDITED QUOTE- why would they leave all that out?

"Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves." [p.112]
 
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Belisarius

Forum Staff
Jun 2006
10,359
U.K.
Hi, and welcome to the site. As you well know, Greek-Macedonian debates tend to get hijacked by nationalist "activists" and have been known to get very bitter, dissolving into personal abuse, so I can understand why our members might be reluctant to get involved. I'll see if I can find an "independent" viewpoint for you.
 

Ari

Apr 2008
208
no im not looking for a debate, all id like to know is what people think of what they have said in those above quotes, debating isnt why im here. im just looking for an unbiased oppinion because my oppinion of these quotes is they are totally outrageous so id really like to know if the neutrals agree with me or not, if not than maybe my judgement is clouded, id like to know
 
May 2008
177
Slovakia
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.


- Well this is even better than in my country:D:D

Greeks from Ethiopia??...Weeell....there is a possibility that some Greek has such genes as ancient Greeks traded with the Red Sea coast and beyond, but...1% of all Greeks??
I think they really had to pick them out. Bullshit.

...

The other quotes are stupid as well, but that shouldn't concern you. You can't do anything about it.
 

Ari

Apr 2008
208
*edited for inappropriate language*

that is a perfect example of fyrom propaganda

i'll be back in a second proving this
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ari

Apr 2008
208
"Even a cursory look at the papers diagrams and trees immediatly indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims.
They use a single genetic marker HLA DRB1 for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker particularly one likely to have undergone selection for the purpose of reconstructing geneologies is unreliable and unacceptable pratice in population genetics"

Neil Risch- Stanford University
Alberto Piazza- University of Torino
L. L. Carvalli Sforza- Stanford University

This "research" has nothing to do with science. It is just low anti-Greek propaganda fabricated by anti-Greeks who made up this "research" for political interests in favour of the pseudo-state of FYROM
This "research" is fictious and ridiculous to such a degree, that it was never accepted by any serious scientist and no genealogical approved its publication, so as not to lose their credibility and reputation
----------
A famous example of this is an international research paper published in August 2002 before being dropped and ridiculed due to its flawed research. It was devised by researchers (the team included some Macedonian Slavs) at the Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology in the Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain and claimed that Greeks (and Japanese) were shown to have genetic origins in Africa as opposed to Europe. Despite being initially published, the research was finally dismissed in the journal Nature by leading geneticists Neil Risch, Alberto Piazza, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza:

"The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute." Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002)© Macmillan Publishers Ltd.

Ironically the Macedonians in the dropped research were found to be a pure race decended directly from the Ancient Macedonians.
 
May 2008
177
Slovakia
Racist?:D:D...I'm on your side about these quotes and you call me a racist?:D:D

Please, start reading what I write finally. It's about the fifth time you misunderstood me.
 
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