Gaining a WW2 unconditional Japanese surrender from naval blockade?

Feb 2019
345
California
#51
I get so tired of this meme which we see recyled over and over and over.

As if people killed in a nuke attack are more dead than people killed/starved to death by their own leaders (as others have pointed out).

As if the Japanese leadership weren't ready to die to the last man/woman/and-or child not named "them".

As though the American occupation wasn't the best thing that ever happend to Japan---a "liberation", per the contemporary Japanese themselves...
As though had the invasion been required to occur and be prosecuted to the end, the Japanese death toll would not have been in the dozens of millions.....

How many Japense are alive right now who never would have been born had not the bombs been dropped? Many many many millions.
 
Mar 2019
1,193
Kansas
#52
Right, but most of the experienced Japanese pilots were dead by this point, with the pilots mainly consisting of raw recruits. And Zeroes were already heavily outclassed by the bulk of the US aircraft.
I am not really debating how the battle would go, simply that the Japanese had been salting away resources for sometime. They actually expected the battle of Okinawa to end sooner and fully expected a US invasion as early as June 45.

The Japanese were banking on forcing the Americans to use carrier based fighters, which limits the number of operational aircraft the US could have in theatre. My understanding was the Japanese were not going to contest air superiority over the landing zones, but wait till the troops were ashore. Then they were going launch a firestorm of aircraft. Basically everything they had all in one wave to try and disrupt the resupply of the landed forces.

Given the havoc that 1400 planes did over Okinawa, one can only imagine the sort of battle that would have ensured.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,644
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#53
As though the American occupation wasn't the best thing that ever happend to Japan---a "liberation", per the contemporary Japanese themselves...
It wasn't, because MacArthur was put in charge. He got some things right, but he failed to get rid of the nationalist narrative, unlike in Europe. That narrative openly exists in Japan today, and is dangerous.

The man had an ego the size of Australia. He had a bust of himself installed in his office, for goodnes sakes!
 
Feb 2019
345
California
#54
It wasn't, because MacArthur was put in charge. He got some things right, but he failed to get rid of the nationalist narrative, unlike in Europe. That narrative openly exists in Japan today, and is dangerous.

The man had an ego the size of Australia. He had a bust of himself installed in his office, for goodnes sakes!
From what I have read the average Japanese was happy indeed about the change in leadership and what followed.

I know that a lot of people have a lot of hate for MacArthur. No doubt his career offers a whole of of fodder for criticisim.

However, to deny the HUGE achievement that was the total reconstruction and re-making of post-war Japan is to suggest that a bit of bias has crept into the analysis.
 
Mar 2019
1,193
Kansas
#55
How many Japense are alive right now who never would have been born had not the bombs been dropped? Many many many millions.
And to the point, how many Americans are alive today because there was no invasion. US planners anticipated 4000 KIA per hour for the first 24 to 48 hours of the landings. That is starting to approach the battle of the Somme in terms of carnage
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,644
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#57
From what I have read the average Japanese was happy indeed about the change in leadership and what followed.

I know that a lot of people have a lot of hate for MacArthur. No doubt his career offers a whole of of fodder for criticisim.

However, to deny the HUGE achievement that was the total reconstruction and re-making of post-war Japan is to suggest that a bit of bias has crept into the analysis.
Certainly MacArthur achieved all of that. But he didn't eradicate Japanese nationalism, which he had the chance to do. Maybe that would have meant putting HIrohito on trial, or a more impartial Tokyo war tribunal, I don't know.

Can you imagine Germany having the equivalent of the Yasukuni shrine and museum that glorifies the war and repeats the nationalist myths anout Japan liberating Asia from the colonial powers?
 
Aug 2016
977
US&A
#58
If I may interject a question here. Ignore the potential of mass-starvation for a moment.

If our Navy had surrounded the home islands of Japan, could we simply deny passage to the USSR's navy on risk of war?

Also, I have read about how bloody operation downfall was supposed to be. Assuming those numbers are formed from wartime estimates, can they be trusted? It seems likely we didn't know about every defensive measure and it's potential effectiveness the Japanese had in place, or have an incredibly good understanding of their mindset at the time.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,644
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#59
He was also horrified that sheep could be grazing on the front lawn of his operations center in Australia as well
Oh well, if you run away from your operational theatre, you can't be choosy really. I wonder if he and Gordon Bennett ever sat down and swapped war stories...
 
Mar 2019
1,193
Kansas
#60
Oh well, if you run away from your operational theatre, you can't be choosy really. I wonder if he and Gordon Bennett ever sat down and swapped war stories...
Yeah..........."I thought it was my duty to try and escape".............before you had either surrendered or been captured............That's called running away in any language lol
 

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