Game of Thrones (SPOILERS)

Oct 2011
421
Croatia
LOL

Stannis literally believed he was Azor Ahai reborn. Everything he did as king was because of religious fervor. He literally takes orders from a witch and sacrificed his own daughter, all to appease the Lord of Light.

Then he dies. Nope, not the promised savior of humanity, whoops! But oh wait, he comes Jon Snow, resurrected from death. Literally stabbed to death and then brought back to life by the same religious witch who then tells him he is the chosen one. The ONLY reason Onion knight switched allegiance was because he believed the prophecy too. So your two examples are literally the worst.

Why chosen as King of the North? Because he's 1) A man 2) Supposedly the son of Ned Stark (whoops, they got that wrong too, also wrong about him being any sort of savior). So again, hereditary is literally the only reason he becomes king.

Now look at Dany. Look at the title. One part of that, being a Targ, is hereditary. The rest she did on her own.
Stannis may have believed he was Azor Ahai, but he was never comfortable with it. He saw it as his duty, not as his privilege. And it was the Red Woman who convinced him he was Azor Ahai, because she misinterpreted her visions. And if you read the books (do it, they will fill in a lot of gaps and stupid things from the show), you see that Stannis hates being hailed as a saviour. He only does what he does because he sees it as his duty towards the Seven Kingdoms. It is Melisandre who sees him as a messianic figure, not himself. And he is only keeping her around because her magic is useful.

Jon Snow is the same as Stannis. Again, he doesn't care whether he is messianic figure or not, he just does his duty. As for being chosen King in the North, he got chosen because he is a 1) proven military leader, and 2) descendant of the rightful ruling dynasty. Being a man has nothing to do with it beyond the fact that men are 1) more expendable and 2) better at fighting, especially in medieval conditions, and are thus expected to be soldiers. As for mistake, nobody knew. That is kinda the point.

Danerys? She is Targaryen, and she inherited three dragon eggs, as well as having support of big names such as Ilyrio and Varys. Her achievements are literally impossible without these three factors. She only gains khalasar because of a) being sold to a khan (arranged by Ilyrio), b) blood magic and c) having dragons. She gains Unsullied by pretending to sell one of three dragon eggs she had inherited. While these achievements are impressive for sure, you are damn wrong about most of her title being what "she did on her own".

EDIT: And yes, I know she had suffered, and been through lot of s**t, but we see almost nothing of that in the show. And even then, it was mostly Viserys who suffered, not her.

EDIT2: I'll just quote this, might add to my explanation:
https://www.quora.com/Why-has-Jon-Snow-garnered-more-love-support-from-fans-than-Daenerys-What-are-the-major-differences
  • She’s not an underdog. Maybe once she was, but not now. More than that, a lot of what she has now feels in many ways unearned: She got dragons eggs because of who she was; what should have been a terrible error in judgment got her dragons; she got the Unsullied with no sacrifice or output or loss of her own; she got to fly away from Meereen when things got tough and other people had to deal with the aftermath; a lot of her advisers/helpers fall into her lap because of what other people have done to them, including Barristan, Tyrion, Yara, Theon, Olenna and the Sand Snakes. They’re with her because of what she can do for them, and that’s it. Even her Dothraki massacre was done with no real exertion on her part, given that the idiot showrunners went ahead and made her fireproof. There’s the sense that she hasn’t worked for anything, it’s either fallen in her lap or worked out because other people (Slaver’s Bay, hai) keep acting dumber than she does. Jon literally died and has been in the blood and muck for people, putting his own skin in the game to gain people’s loyalty. The fact that he’s not immune to anything makes what he does more meaningful, because it involves actual risk.
 
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aggienation

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Stannis may have believed he was Azor Ahai, but he was never comfortable with it. He saw it as his duty, not as his privilege. And it was the Red Woman who convinced him he was Azor Ahai, because she misinterpreted her visions. And if you read the books (do it, they will fill in a lot of gaps and stupid things from the show), you see that Stannis hates being hailed as a saviour. He only does what he does because he sees it as his duty towards the Seven Kingdoms. It is Melisandre who sees him as a messianic figure, not himself. And he is only keeping her around because her magic is useful.
It didn't matter if he was. He believed it and his belief dictated his actions, You writing about messianic figure, did you ever look what that means?

"a saviour or liberator of a group of people"

So you have Stannis Baratheon, who wants to be king so he can save everyone, because he and others thinks hes Azor Ahai. Then you have Jon Snow, who wants to save everyone, while some think he thinks hes Azor Ahai.

Then you have Dany. Who manages to rise from nothing to respected Khaleesi, birth three dragons while surviving a fire. Free the Unsullied and other slaves. Conquer numerous lands. All before she ever even hears about prophecies of Azor Ahai. She is literally the savior and liberator.

You don't have a leg to stand on with this argument. Dany deserved to rule every bit as much as anyone else, minus the whole problem that the Iron Throne was historically governed by primogeniture law, which means she has no legit claim (not that it mattered by Season 8).
 
Oct 2011
421
Croatia
It didn't matter if he was. He believed it and his belief dictated his actions, You writing about messianic figure, did you ever look what that means?

"a saviour or liberator of a group of people"

So you have Stannis Baratheon, who wants to be king so he can save everyone, because he and others thinks hes Azor Ahai. Then you have Jon Snow, who wants to save everyone, while some think he thinks hes Azor Ahai.

Then you have Dany. Who manages to rise from nothing to respected Khaleesi, birth three dragons while surviving a fire. Free the Unsullied and other slaves. Conquer numerous lands. All before she ever even hears about prophecies of Azor Ahai. She is literally the savior and liberator.

You don't have a leg to stand on with this argument. Dany deserved to rule every bit as much as anyone else, minus the whole problem that the Iron Throne was historically governed by primogeniture law, which means she has no legit claim (not that it mattered by Season 8).
This is me influenced by the books, but Stannis doesn't believe he is Azor Ahai, Melisandre does. Stannis just tries to do what he can to defend the realm. Consider this:
I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.
I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning… burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh & turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?
Stannis believes that his campagn for the Iron Throne will kill him, yet he pursues it anyway because he believes it to be his duty towards the kingdom. You have to understand that Stannis is a legalist: he does not want to sit on the throne, he does it because that is what the law demands. He does not want to burn people, he does it because that is what his religion demans. He does not want to be a saviour, but as far as he is aware, he is one, and he tries to fulfill his duty.

That being said, I do not think even Stannis in the show ever believed he is Azor Ahai; one in the books definitely didn't. Everything he did smelled, to me, of political maneuvering and of desperation. He doesn't believe in Rh'llor at all:
Is the hand of R'hllor spotted and palsied?" asked Stannis. "This sounds more Walder Frey's handiwork than any god's.
Daenerys didn't "rise from nothing". That same way you could say that Jon Snow "rose from nothing", that Davos Seaworth "rose from nothing"... she had been given everything she needed to succeed from the beginning. She inherited dragon eggs, her marriage to Khal Drogo was negotiated by somebody other than her; she only survived fire by either blood magic (books) or "being a true dragon" (show). She managed to free Unsullied because she inherited three dragon eggs that hatched and could "trade" a dragon for the army. She conquered lands because she had dragon eggs to buy an army - but how did she govern those lands?
 

Maki

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I don't really know why Stannis even allowed Melisandre to spread her faith. Sure, she turned out to be quite useful, but at the beginning...adopting the Red God was a dumb political move for Stannis given that practically no one follows the religion in Westeros.
 
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aggienation

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This is me influenced by the books, but Stannis doesn't believe he is Azor Ahai, Melisandre does. Stannis just tries to do what he can to defend the realm. Consider this:
There is absolutely zero indication that Stannis doesn't believe. He does everything Melisandre says, he watches her birth demons, he sacrifices his daughter, he has the sword that catches on fire. He is, in every single way, a true fervent believer.

Daenerys didn't "rise from nothing". That same way you could say that Jon Snow "rose from nothing", that Davos Seaworth "rose from nothing"... she had been given everything she needed to succeed from the beginning. She inherited dragon eggs, her marriage to Khal Drogo was negotiated by somebody other than her; she only survived fire by either blood magic (books) or "being a true dragon" (show). She managed to free Unsullied because she inherited three dragon eggs that hatched and could "trade" a dragon for the army. She conquered lands because she had dragon eggs to buy an army - but how did she govern those lands?
She is a nobody, she's the possession of her brother who uses her as a bribe to try to gain an army. She didn't inherit dragons, they were a wedding gift. She briefly becomes the honored wife of Khal Drogo, by manipulating a serial rapist into obeying his silver haired foreign wife. When he dies, her kid dies, she burns herself, trying to commit suicide. At that point she rises from the ashes with dragons, her children. After that she leads remainder of loyal followers across a desert nobody is supposed to try to cross, at which point after she wins again. And again. And again.

Within years she has a massive army, three grown dragons that see her as mommy, and tons of totally loyal adherents who think she's the greatest thing since sliced bread, who see in her hope of a sort no other leader musters, not even Jon Snow.
 
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aggienation

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I don't really know why Stannis even allowed Melisandre to spread her faith. Sure, she turned out to be quite useful, but at the beginning...adopting the Red God was a dumb political move for Stannis given that practically no one follows the religion in Westeros.
Because he believed.
 
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Maki

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I think in some way, Melisandre's claims struck a cord with Stannis. He spent his entire life in the shadow of his brothers. Robert was this great warrior who ended a 300-year old dynasty, killed Rhaegar, while Renly was this handsome prince everyone loved. I think Stannis really wanted to believe Melisandre because it would make him special, a hero destined to save the world, the real hero of the Baratheon brothers.
 
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Fiver

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In Season 2 she is a nobody with no army or power. She doesn't even free the Unsullied until Season 3.

In season 4, she crucifies the masters after they crucified the children. Why choose 163? Because that was the number they crucified. Which masters were chosen? She let the Mereneese choose.

In season 6, she burned the Khals alive after they tried to enslave her, then threaten to rape her, then let their horses rape her. boo hoo, Dany killed the rapey leaders of horse riding rape army.

In season 7, she gave her defeated enemy, including the Tarly dad and son, numerous opportunity to bend the knee or take the Black, both were refused. She is a conquering queen, executing them is perfectly acceptable, its not psycho in the least.

Everything from season 8 isn't worth mentioning because its all crap writing, all written to set up an implausible plot, that was completely rushed and done with the grace of a hippo pooping.
I note that even you don't attempt to justify Danerys 4th season having her dragons burn and eat a master without making any attempt to determine if he was a supporter of the Sons of the Harpy. In season 2, she had no army and little power, but she had dragons and her first impulse on being refused entry to Qarth was to say she would return and burn the entire city. Not just the leaders who had refused them, but the entire city. When the forces of Astapor, Yunkai, and Volantis send a fleet to attack Meereen, Danerys first impulse is to burn all three sisters. Not just the slavers or the armies, but their whole cities including the slaves. In Season 3, she does free the Unsullied, but she then orders the mass execution of every master in Yunkai, not just those who were involved in the horrors that went into making the Unsullied. in season 4, she does crucify the masters after they crucified the children, but she is shown having the Unsullied round up the nearest masters, not chose the ones who did it. And we soon find out that at least one of the people she ordered crucified argued against crucifying the children. In season 6, some of the khals threatened to rape her, but Danerys killed all of them, not just the would-be rapists. And then she took what you call a "rape army" to invade another land. In season 7, she gave the Tarleys and the Lannister troops the choice of enslavement or death. That may not be psycho, but it was cruel, and the reactions of other characters show that it was definitely not "perfectly acceptable".

These last 2 seasons have been rushed due to the lesser number of episodes, but Danerys has always had a darkness, a cruelty. She has always seen mass murder as the first answer to problems, and seldom, if ever, cared if innocents were also killed.

Compared to the rest of the show's contestants for the Iron Throne, Dany, minus Season 8, is the most sane leader existing. Throughout the show Dany has shown untold compassion to the weak and helpless.
Danerys has repeatedly ordered or approved of the the cruel and merciless execution of the weak and helpless. We give her a pass because most of the people killed were bad people, but some of those killed were innocent and many did not deserve death. Her brother was arrogant, insulting, cruel, and threatening. Does that merit the horrible death he received. Does that merit Danerys mocking her weak and helpless brother in his death? How much compassion did she show to the weak and helpless tarleys?

She has shown to take no joy in the act of killing besides a few times when it was done for a clearly righteous reason, the rest of the time she does it when she needs to, as she is a queen and leader of conquering army, and she is going to get her hands dirty. But she is absolutely nothing like her psycho pyromaniac father or her deranged brother. And nothing like her peers.
Her brother was cruel, arrogant, and believed in his destiny. So is Daenrys, but she was also smarter, prettier, and had three dragons. Danearys and her father both repeatedly burned their real or imagined enemies alive and threatened to burn whole cities to the ground. The only difference in methods was her father had no dragons, so he had to use wildfire. The only difference in results was one Lannister tried to stop the Mad King with steel, while another tried to stop Danaerys with words.

Compare her to other major leaders in Westeros. Robert Baratheon ordered her assassinated, was happy the rest of Targ kids were killed, and apparently had no issues when Tywin Lannister's army sacked Kings Landing. About the best thing to be said about him was he was so unenthusiastica bout being king he didn't bother playing too many power trips. Tywin Lannister completely eliminated the house of Reyne, sacked Kings Landing, had his son's legit wife gang raped, had the Riverlands plundered by the Mountain, orchestrated the Red Wedding, etc. Tyrion, as hand of Joffrey, upon finding out of the treacherous nature of the Red Wedding, had zero moral qualms about it, nor did he have issues with a ton of other executions he ordered or was involved in (he is FAR from moral character). Stannis burned his own daughter as a sacrifice. The Iron Islanders pillaged the Reach and part of the North. Jon Snow had countless people executed for disobedience or other crimes, as did Robb Stark. The Boltons at best flay people alive and rape newlyweds, at worst feed random people living to dogs. Cercei committed a legit act of terrorism blowing up the Great Sept, as well as committing basically every crime someone can commit, gleefully with as much joy as can be gotten from it. Joffrey was a complete monster. Littlefinger basically arranged the civil war in the first place for giggles. Varys has been actively working throughout the whole show to undermine pretty much every monarch he worked for. I'm surely missing a bunch.
Everybody in the setting is flawed, but not all of them are as flawed as you state. Feel free to give examples of Tyrion ordering any executions or evidence that he knew of the Red Wedding before it happened. Jon Snow had one person executed for disobeying a direct order and four executed for murdering him, which hardly qualifies as "countless". A lot more than four men were part of the plot to murder him, yet Jon only ordered the execution of the men who actually stabbed him, the rest received undeserved mercy. Robb Stark ordered the execution of half-a-dozen men for murdering prisoners, which hardly qualifies as "countless", either. Unlike Danaerys, both Jon and Robb have only ordered the execution of the clearly guilty. Littlefinger did not arrange the civil war for giggles, he did it out of ambition, which is a less horrible reason. I'm unaware of Varys doing anything to undermine the Mad KIng, Robert, or Joffrey.

Tommen was the ONLY person who was truly merciful and good in the whole damn story. Which was why his character was doomed from the get go.
I'd make a case for Tommen's sister and her fiance also being merciful and good, but they fared no better.
 
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