Game of Thrones (SPOILERS)

May 2019
27
Near East
Overall, the execution of Daenerys's invasion of Westeros ever since the seventh season was a failure. Daenerys at the beginning of the seventh season "didn't want to be queen of the ashes", alright. She did not want to attack King's Landing, alright. But she had three large dragons - why didn't she do like her ancestor Rhaenyra had done during the so-called "Dance of Dragons", the Targaryen civil war? She just flew her dragon and landed in the courtyard of the Red Keep. No innocents were harmed, few dared oppose her, she arrested the royal family and was crowned queen while her armies entered the city which fell within a day. Mind you, at the beginning of season seven Qyburn hadn't begun developing the scorpions, and Cersei hadn't put her human shield plan into fruition. But oh well.
 
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Iraq Bruin

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
5,195
DC
when told there would be only six episodes , the writer had to just throw the whole thing into a heap
since they are not very good they just butchered it

for me the major flaw was getting the battle of the whites before the king's landing stouch

it's like putting saving the world as a lesser prelude to who will win the pretty bauble

it also could have plenty of characters killed in one great finale
The sequence of KL before NK-fight would not fit with the Mad Queen narrative though, the Night King narrative of taking on divided and bickering squabblers was basically set aside.

They would have to explain allying with a crazy woman in order to defeat the NK which I do not think they were interested in.
 
Nov 2013
1,486
Serbia
my only beef is that it was miserably acted , Daenery acting is as believable as her blondness
I actually thought this episode was one of her better acting performances. The scene where she grieves was quite good, so was her scene with Jon Snow, the scene where she flips wasn't bad either.
 
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Nemowork

Ad Honorem
Jan 2011
8,464
South of the barcodes
Speaking of stupidity and human shields... Missandei's execution in the previous episode. So I am facing a Dragon Queen who can burn my whole castle to slag. I am already thinking of human shield tactics by bringing civilians in. I have in my possession her best friend. Do I:
a) Kill her in front of the Dragon Queen, enraging her to burn my castle and city despite the civilians and robbing me of any leverage whatsoever, or
b) Tell the Dragon Queen that the friend will be always in my presence, so that she can't burn my castle and me without burning her friend, too, and also preserving the friend as a hostage/leverage until the attack is actually in progress?

Oh well. One more episode to go.
the problem with Cersei is that she always wants to be the one in complete power and she always wants to twist the knife so people understand it.

She had the Scorpions, theyd killed one dragon and made the other helpless to attack KL. If it tried it would be shot down and Dany probably killed.
She has the iron fleet so even if Dany could get reinforcements she cant bring them by sea.
The Dothraki and unsullied have been slaughtered by the Night King and are outnumbered by the Lannisters and Golden company.
The northern army doesnt count, they dont have siege weapons and they were already weake after the red wedding.

By every rule of the game as she saw it she had won and she wanted to make it obvious.

Unfortunately shes an appallingly bad planner and an even worse politician, she misjudged her opponents and how powerful and adgile dragons were when they werent ambushed.
 
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Nemowork

Ad Honorem
Jan 2011
8,464
South of the barcodes
Although come to think of it its interesting how similar Dany and Cersei are in personality. theyre both the neglected women who have to stand behind the male heir, theyre both basically sold off to use theior bodies for political advantage. theyre both determined to climb to the top and theyre both appallignly bad at being in charge and accepting dissent.

Dany was raised believing in the rightness of the Targaryen heir and that peoplel could be sacrificed for it, then her brother fails and she becomes that heir.
she turns the raping hordes of the Dothraki into a force of morality, which ought to be impossible.
she survives incineration which is impossible
she births dragons which is impossible.
She believes fate has given her a cause and gifted her the means to achieve it.

The trouble is shes also the abused girl who has never had power, wasnt educated in what to do with it and has always wanted to be seen as powerful. Thats what the dragons are to her, her manifestation of power, Dothraki are power, unsullied are power and she has a worrying tendency to use them so people see her as powerful.
In most cases this has been used against people we see as wrong but in every case its maybe not about the rightness of the cause but about giving her a chance to shower off power, that shes the one with Dragons.

In the last couple of episodes shes lost her Dothraki and unsullied, shes lost her advisors and shes lost one core part of her identity, that shes the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne. Shes just another pretender.
But what she does have is the dragons, theyre power. And then she loses another one, shes the mother of dragons, the one who commands because she has dragons and now shes only got a third of her power.
There has to be part of her that wants to go nuclear just to show off to her followers that she is still powerful, that one third of her power is still greeater that them so dont even think about how weak she is in other ares.
But mostly its her own insecurities, shes wanted to torch cities for the last couple of series, its showing to herself that shes not the powerless child bride shes the all conquering mother of dragons.

Okay thats rambling but it made me think of when the turning point was and its definitely killing the Tarleys.

Westeros runs on honour, loyalty and duty. Randall Tarly chose to stand by his honour when Dany betrayed her principles by giving him a choice of surrendering to slavery or death. Westeros has a traditional third option to solve these issues, taking the black but Dany doesnt have that option. But shes painted herself into a corner, she has to show shes in charge and cant be disagreed with.
Then Dickon goes and stands by his father accepting death before dishonour.
This is a seriosly mythic moment for Westerosi manhood, family, loyalty and duty beats death and Tyrion knows it.
But Dany doesnt, she could have said shes impressed by the display of bravery and loyalty and given them their lives, that would have given her kudos with the Westerosi lords but she doesnt see it, she doesnt do politics all she can do is see shes being defied and reach for her dragons.
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,630
I dont recall Dany massacring innocent women , children and men deliberately before this episode. Executing some persons for proved or alleged crimes is one thing, and "burning them all" is some thing else. Most probably Dany in books will also gradually become mad in the books but i highly doubt she will be suddenly switched like in this episode.
Not for any instinct toward restraint. She wanted to burn cities while she was in Slaver's Bay but her advisers talked her out of it. When cities oppose Daenerys her first instict has always been to settle the issue with fire and blood.
 
Oct 2011
430
Croatia
There is absolutely zero indication that Stannis doesn't believe. He does everything Melisandre says, he watches her birth demons, he sacrifices his daughter, he has the sword that catches on fire. He is, in every single way, a true fervent believer.
As I said before: if you chose to ignore shitty writing - because show!Stannis is nothing like book!Stannis - then there are two possible explanations: fervent belief, and desperation. Personally, I go with the latter.

She is a nobody, she's the possession of her brother who uses her as a bribe to try to gain an army. She didn't inherit dragons, they were a wedding gift. She briefly becomes the honored wife of Khal Drogo, by manipulating a serial rapist into obeying his silver haired foreign wife. When he dies, her kid dies, she burns herself, trying to commit suicide. At that point she rises from the ashes with dragons, her children. After that she leads remainder of loyal followers across a desert nobody is supposed to try to cross, at which point after she wins again. And again. And again.

Within years she has a massive army, three grown dragons that see her as mommy, and tons of totally loyal adherents who think she's the greatest thing since sliced bread, who see in her hope of a sort no other leader musters, not even Jon Snow.
Wedding gift, yes, but she didn't gain those eggs on her own. And she hardly manipulated Khal Drogo, though my memory may be bit iffy on that detail. Burning, as you point out, was likely a fluke.

And everything else you point out she gained by possessing three dragon eggs and having people underestimate her. But had she been in the Westeros from the outset, I'd say she would have gotten eaten alive.

To wit:
* she gained three dragon eggs as a gift
* her marriage to khal Drogo was negotiated by Ilyrio, who gave her those dragon eggs in the first place
* she became Drogo's favourite wife because of her unique looks and her willingness to please him - all of which was thanks to advice from her maids, which were gifted to her by Viserys
* she survived to hatch dragon eggs by accident
* she gained the Unsullied because she had dragon hatchlings and could control them
* she gained the Second Sons etc. because Daario was infatuated with her
* she gained Jorah Mormont, Ser Barristan etc. because they had literally nowhere else to go, or at least believed that to be the case
Not a single thing on this list was fully earned, all had aspects of either a gift or sheer dumb luck, even if some did have to be worked for to some degree.
* she also flew away from Mereen once things got problematic, leaving her advisors to rule
* she defeated the attack on the city because of a) dragons and b) her enemies' propensity for usage of slave armies
* she consistently opts for the most cruel or at least very cruel solution, only to have her advisors talk her out of it - her first impulse in any given situation is to burn her enemies, as well as any innocent people who happen to be in the way (she wanted to burn Quarth, Astapor, Yunkai, Mereen and King's Landing - it was always her advisors who talked her out of it; she did burn Randyll and Rickon Tarly without offering them the possibility of taking the black, or taking them as hostages)

Compare with Stannis:
* he had literally the worst starting position out of all the original contenders
** very small population base
** limited finances
** was fairly unpopular because he was not a liar and a cheat
*** everybody outside Stormlands (the area he ruled) actively hated him
* he only ever burned criminals (in the books, showrunners admittedly changed that=
yet
* he managed to gain himself the Reach army by double-crossing his brother (murdering Renly before Renly could murder him) - albeit there he was lucky by having Melisandre
* he nearly took the King's Landing, a city usually believed to be nearly impregnable, and only failed due to sheer dumb luck on Tywin's part / Robb Stark's lack of communication skills (Lord Tully intercepted his host, allowing Tywin to be in position to help King's Landing in time)
* he defeated a Wildling army many times the size of his own host

And if you want to know the real hero of the story, Jon Snow:
* he was born a bastard, which was a disadvantage compared to other highborns (though it did allow him access to education and training)
* he forfeited his noble name to join the Night's Watch
* he was chosen as steward for Lord Commander Mormont (first time he did not earn something)
* he rose through ranks and was eventually elected Lord Commander
* he held the Wall against Wildlings until Stannis came
* he negotiated or at least helped negotiate peace with Wildlings and their inclusion into Night's Watch and, later, Stark forces
* he got himself killed by being too f***ing honorable, but got resurrected (second time he did not earn something) - this is where the books end
* he won Battle of Bastards thanks to Sansa's help (third time he did not earn something)
* he was elected King in the North
* he negotiated first access to obsidian, and then alliance with Daenerys (though there he had help from Davos Seaworth and Dany's obvious infatuation)

I don't really know why Stannis even allowed Melisandre to spread her faith. Sure, she turned out to be quite useful, but at the beginning...adopting the Red God was a dumb political move for Stannis given that practically no one follows the religion in Westeros.
I could find quotes from the books, but his reasoning in nutshell was "nobody likes me anyway, so why the hell not".
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,566
Republika Srpska
I could find quotes from the books, but his reasoning in nutshell was "nobody likes me anyway, so why the hell not".
I have read the books a long time ago so I forgot a lot of things, but if this is true, then Stannis absolutely does not deserve the throne.