German prisoners on the east front

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,710
Sydney
#41
the number of " Missing presumed dead " tend to be higher when an army is fast retreating

there is a certain amount of disorder in the paperwork , the field officers have other things on their mind
often whole squads or platoons are missing or scattered

There is no question the German Army behaved in a shameful manner ,
they have been largely whitewashed of their crimes

"the sigma of having been a POW was considered to be shameful post war and they were often shunned by Soviet society. "

this extended even to the Gulag , after the war there was a group of events called " the bitches wars "
The really tough criminal under the law Vory-v-Zakone ‘thieves in law’ held non criminal prisoners in contempt
they would never cooperate with the guards under any circumstances and ran an underworld control system inside the camps themselves

those prisoners who during the war had gone fighting were treated as "bitches" and mistreated

" The underworld was also riven by internal divisions following World War II as the criminal fraternity became divided between the traditional Voryand ( criminals ) a growing number of Suki (bitches). Many Vory had been drafted into the Red Army, but after the war, many returned to the Gulag, either because the authorities refused to grant them their promised freedom, or because they had committed new crimes after release, so were re-arrested.
On arrival back in the camps, they were shunned by the traditional Vory, who viewed them as traitors who had betrayed the criminal code by serving on the front line.

By 1948, a full scale civil war had broken out between the rival factions, the Such’Ia Voina (Bitches War).
In the battles that were fought within the camps, the Suki were generally victorious, as the guards often supplied weapons to the Suki whilst the Vory remained unarmed.
Some incidents occurred where 150 armed Suki fought 100 unarmed Vory massacring the majority of them.
The Suki were often encouraged by the guards to attack the Vory, and were ‘rewarded’ by being offered supervisory roles.
As a result, the Suki adopted a revised criminal code, one with fewer constraints which allowed for collaboration with the camp guards.
The Suki then became the ‘storm troopers of the Gulag’ as they ruled over the other camp inmates under direct orders from the guards."
 
Likes: authun
Jul 2016
9,544
USA
#42
As Admiral Canaris Head of German Secret Service pointed out. Hitler had Canaris executed. You can argue as much as you want that Hitler should have obeyed the rules, but he didn't and you seem to be the only person surprised at that.
You started this quote tree by quoting this:

"If we take into account the behaviour of the Germany army in their invasion of the Soviet Union it's a little surprising that the Soviets took any prisoners."

You replied with this:

"Hitler knew how the soviets treated their own civilians before the war and the SU was not signatory to the Geneva Convention for POWs. It is why he said it would be like no other way before it. British POWs at the Bergen Fallingsbostel camp recorded how they felt sorry for the russians in the neighbouring camp. Occasionally they threw food over to them but they 'fought like dogs' for any scraps. Solzhenitsyn wrote how, when the remnant red army POWs were returned to the SU, they were immediately sent to Siberia as Stalin didn't want them telling how Russia had abandonned them, unlike the allies, who were better fed and who received swiss red cross visits. The mentality of the SU was that the quickest way to clear a minefield was to march the army though it. If they can do that to their own, prospects were bleak for POWs. "

The above post, unless you messed up writing it, seems to be an attempt to explain away the situation, that USSR wasn't a signatory of the Geneva Convention protocols on treatment of POWs, which is completely immaterial. That is the point of what I was posting. Germany WAS a signatory, which meant Germany had to abide by it. But didn't. And we're talking more than just the Nazi party and SS scum, we're talking rank and file Heer, to the point their reputation, and the whole of the Wehrmacht, will rightfully be forever tarnished as systemic war criminals. They violated the hell out of the '29 Geneva Convention, and because they lost that war they faced the consequences, unfortunately not enough (do to need for W. Germany in NATO).

Redcoat, who started this quote tree, was absolutely right. The Germans were very lucky they weren't treated similar to how they treated others. Even the Soviet Union, which didn't even have to abide by the Geneva Convention on treatment of POWs, treated the German people a whole hell of a lot better than the reverse. Lucky Germans...
 
Last edited:
Jan 2018
384
Sturgeon Lake Mn.
#43
I think saying Nazis instead of Germans (unless talking about the Nazis particularly) and Nazi Germany rather than Germany lets the Germans somewhat off the hook (perhaps by post war NATO design as Aggie might suggest) and is akin to saying the Democrats went to war with Mexico in 1846 or that the Republican Army captured Vicksburg.
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,779
Stockport Cheshire UK
#44
That is not Solzhenitsyn's account, which is my source. Where have you read otherwise? From interviews with soviet officers that I have read, the prevalent view was, 'if you survived behind german lines, you must have been a collborator'.
According to Soviet figures, of the 1,569,572 POW's, 281,780 (18,3%) were sent home, 659,190 (42,8%) were placed in reserve units of the Red Army, 344,448 (22,3%) were placed in labour battalions and 226,127 (14,6%) were handed over to the NKVD. The other 27,930 (1,81%) were used in the dismantling of industrial sites in Poland and Germany for transport to the SU.
 
Likes: Bruno

authun

Ad Honorem
Aug 2011
5,219
#45
The above post, unless you messed up writing it, seems to be an attempt to explain away the situation, that USSR wasn't a signatory of the Geneva Convention protocols on treatment of POWs, which is completely immaterial.
Are you seriously claiming that if you go to war with a country that had murdered millions of its own citizens and which had not ratified the geneva convention that you would expect fair treatment of any of your countrymen who were taken prisoner by them? Hitler certainly didn't, hence his view that this war would be like no other and hence the brutal way in which they were treated.

Germany WAS a signatory, which meant Germany had to abide by it.
Hitler gave no consideration to whatever the Weimar Republic had signed up to. His whole political aim was to replace it and that he alone should direct the third reich. He embarked on the persecution of many groups and led germany during the holocaust. He ignored lots of things, like the demilitarision of the rhineland or his agreement with Chamberlain. He didn't feel like he had to do anything that he didn't want to. He knew the soviets would treat the german prisoners badly and he was in no mood to treat soviet prisoners fairly. I don't see what is contentious about that. The record shows, that is what happened.
 

authun

Ad Honorem
Aug 2011
5,219
#46
According to Soviet figures, of the 1,569,572 POW's, 281,780 (18,3%) were sent home, 659,190 (42,8%) were placed in reserve units of the Red Army, 344,448 (22,3%) were placed in labour battalions and 226,127 (14,6%) were handed over to the NKVD. The other 27,930 (1,81%) were used in the dismantling of industrial sites in Poland and Germany for transport to the SU.
Where does this data come from? I mean, Stalin had an interest in making the figures look favourable for him but how credible are these figures for modern historians?
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,779
Stockport Cheshire UK
#47
Where does this data come from? I mean, Stalin had an interest in making the figures look favourable for him but how credible are these figures for modern historians?
Fairly reliable, these are figures that were not made public until the end of the Cold War.
 
Likes: sparky
Dec 2011
1,332
Belgium
#49
Isleifson/Laumesfeld,

you know me already a bit...always seeking to the core of the matter...and it has not that much to do with the thread, that otherwise is very interesting for me...but after reading the novel in German start of the Sixties to learn more German, I found it that "meeslepend" (compelling?) that I had no time to seek for all the words that I didn't understood (and as German is close to Dutch there weren't thousands of them)

But years later I learned in a Dutch or French paper that the story was all fake...so far for historicity...but I have to say it is nevertheless a good story:)....
Josef Martin Bauer – Wikipedia
https://www.amazon.de/So-weit-die-Füße-tragen/dp/3431027180

About the truth
What was the motivation and fate of the Polish Jew?
Cornelius Rost - Wikipedia

From the wiki:
"Comprehensive researches, condensed in 2010 into a three-hour radio feature by radio journalist Arthur Dittlmann for the Bayerischer Rundfunk(Bavarian Broadcasting Company),[8] left serious doubts about the authenticity of the events told in Rost's original story. For example, no prisoner of war camp existed at Cape Dezhnev in the Far East of Siberia at the time claimed in the book; Rost was not a Wehrmacht officer as depicted in the story; the German Red Cross, with headquarters in Munich, never received any inquiry about his whereabouts, which is unusual for a ten-year imprisonment; and Rost had been released from a Soviet prisoner of war camp on 28 October 1947, about two years before his alleged escape in 1949–1952, which he therefore could not have accomplished.[9] Additional errors include the main street in Moscow, along which he and his captured comrades were driven at the beginning of the novel, was named by Rost as Nevsky Prospekt, which is actually located in Saint Petersburg. As a result, Bauer, as the author of the book, is now blamed for not having critically cross-checked such unreliable details in Rost's story.[9]

Kind regards from Paul.
 
Jul 2016
9,544
USA
#50
Are you seriously claiming that if you go to war with a country that had murdered millions of its own citizens and which had not ratified the geneva convention that you would expect fair treatment of any of your countrymen who were taken prisoner by them? Hitler certainly didn't, hence his view that this war would be like no other and hence the brutal way in which they were treated.
Are you not understanding how law works? GERMANY WAS REQUIRED TO OBEY THE GENEVA CONVENTION. Whether or not the Soviet Union ratified it is immaterial, because Germany did. Which meant Germany was held acountable to obey it, which they purposefully didn't. You seem to be operating under the delusion that if someone else isn't a signatory, then you can treat them however you want. Only if you yourself are also not a signatory.

Hitler gave no consideration to whatever the Weimar Republic had signed up to. His whole political aim was to replace it and that he alone should direct the third reich. He embarked on the persecution of many groups and led germany during the holocaust. He ignored lots of things, like the demilitarision of the rhineland or his agreement with Chamberlain. He didn't feel like he had to do anything that he didn't want to.
Absolutley false. Hitler pulled out of numerous previous agreements, simply saying he wouldn't obey them. He did it with the Versailles Agreement, for instance, he publicly declared Germany was not going to

He knew the soviets would treat the german prisoners badly and he was in no mood to treat soviet prisoners fairly. I don't see what is contentious about that. The record shows, that is what happened.
This is the part you show you have no clue what you're talking about, you're literally just making it all up. First of all, Germany treated all Slavs just as bad. Read what the Germans did in Poland and any other occupied territory. WW2 in Europe is considered a racial war for a reason. Second, when Germany invaded the USSR, they absolutely were not expecting a long drawn out war where they would even have to worry about how the Soviets treated their POWs, because they expected to totally defeat the Soviet Union inside 6-8 weeks from the start of Barbarossa. Hint hint, there was a reason they didn't have winter clothing ready once the snow fell in October...

You're starting to come across as an apologist of the Germans committing atrocities. I surely hope that isn't the case, but I'll dig through your old posts on this subject to find out.