Goddess Isis as model for Virgin Mary

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,048
#11
Why not. Every kid wud know in due course that he came from his mother. So, wud not be that difficult to persuade someone that his entire tribe originated from a certain common mother, and in turn the whole world as perceivable to him from an even greater celestial or divine 'mother'. [/quite]

While very plausible, that does not make it true. Since we can't ask any Neolithic person what they really thought, we are at the end of the day just guessing, A very good guess, and most likely true, but still a guess, which we should keep in mind.

Other primitive stone age cultures that still exist, in the Amazon, or New Guinea, don't seem to have this mother cult as far as I know.


My grandfathers & grandmothers believed that the earth is flat. Quite likely also my own mother. Big deal.
Really? The idea of a spherical earth was believed by most educated people around the world except China since early medieval tines and before., Where did your grandparents live tnat was so backwards in its geographical knowledge? Anyone going to school would have been taught tne world was round, so did that mean your mother didn't attend any formal schooling? I am very surprised.

in any case, even a casual investigation of primary medieval writings, for example Bede,would have revealed medieval people did not believe tne earth was flat, which meant the historians who had medieval Europeans believed the earth was flat had not done their job, and looked up source material. The people asserting claims of a pre Neolithic mother cult may be the same, not looking at the real evidence.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,048
#12
The original Gospel, Mark didn't even include a birth-story, so the forgers of Luke and Matthew created one and they corrupted Isaiah 7:14 and 9:16, that are written in Past-tense based on the Orphic myths of Dionysus. 
Neither did John or Paul include a birtn narative, either. The story of Dionysus is quite different from Jesus birth story. Dionysus was conceived by Zeus through sex, and his mother died on birth. Jesus was not conceived via sex, nor did his mother die upon his birth. So how is Dionysus story of his mother dying at the moment of his birth and Jesus mother outliving him. They are not the same.

Further, there was no rewriting of Isaiah as you claim. It is clear that Luke and Matthew used the Greek rathet than tne Hebrew text, and there is some differences with the Greek text compared to the Hebrew, but no evidence the differences are due to Greek myths.


Baby Dionysus in his manger

No legend ever said Dionysus was born in a manager, that is rubbish. Of course, you can claim the 2 stories are similar if you completely invent stories about Dionysis to make them sound the same as Jesus.

There is no manager in the picture at all, in fact there is no building shown in the picture, manager or otherwise!


The word Manger (φάτνην ) appear in Isaiah 1:3.
- ὄνος (Donkey) τὴν φάτνην (Manger)


The Hebrew word for Donkey, חמור (HMUR) from חמר (HMR) means Red Wine (Isa 27:2) and the cognate is ἡμερίς (HMERIS) "the cultivated vine".
Greek Word Study Tool



οἶνος - Wine
ὄνος - Donkey 
Complete hash, and completely irrelevant to the discussion. Donkeyn never appears in birth narrative, not at Jesus death, nor at his resurrection. And the Hebrew word for donkey does not mean red wine. Wine is chemer, donkey is chamor. Read and red are spelled very similar too, but mean completely different things.


Justin the Martyr, in his First Apology, states that the cult of Dionysus was mimicking the cult of Christ, through its use of wine, donkeys, death and resurrection

* Justin Martyr never existed and all his works are 3rd-4th century forgeries.
Please provide the quote that Justin Martyr accuses the Cult of Dionysus as mimicking Jesus through its use of resurrection. While Justin often, falsely in my opinion, accused pagans of mimicking Christians and Jewish beliefs, I don't recall this particular example. In any case, Justin is clearly wrong in most cases, as with as modern people who say the reverse.

And while mythics, as part of their ideological commitment, might instist all the works of Justin are fogeries, that has not been proven to be true, nor that Justin Martyr did not exist. Even if, which has not be shown to be true, all the works of Justin are proven to be late forgeries, that does not prove he did not exist.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#13
חמד - "Red Wine" (Isa 27:2)

The allusion is made in Genesis 49:11 describing Judah.

Gen 49:11 ( ἡμερίς )
Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

1Sa 16:20
And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. (Silenus)

Mar 11:7
They brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him

Donkey-Wine Symbolism
 
Jun 2012
7,039
Malaysia
#14
Really? The idea of a spherical earth was believed by most educated people around the world except China since early medieval tines and before., Where did your grandparents live tnat was so backwards in its geographical knowledge? Anyone going to school would have been taught tne world was round, so did that mean your mother didn't attend any formal schooling? I am very surprised.
And you must also be really naive, to simply assume that the great majority of folks of even only a few generations ago, all over the world, believed that the earth was anything but flat. Nope, many of them did not go to school, cud not read or write, did not hv television, electricity, a fridge, or piped water.

I myself was taking my daily three baths at a neighbour's community-shared well until I was thirteen, when my uncle arranged for the digging of a well of our own. Got electricity & piped water when I was fifteen, and the telly when I was seventeen.

And you really reckon that someone like my gran cud hv really grasped a concept like gravity? Something which wud hv been essential to the understanding & acceptance of a round earth. And no, we never even once got to talking about what wud happen when a ship reached 'the edge of the earth'.
 
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Feb 2012
3,836
Portugal
#15
Just two things about what is being written:


In Greek cosmogony as far as I know Gaia is the first to emerge from Chaos along with Eros and she is the one who generate Ouranos the male figure who then fathers the Titans.


The other is that Jesus made his entry in Jerusalem riding a donkey. And since the topic is about Isis I should mention the curiosity that at least in the Graeco-Roman cult the donkey was an animal detested by the godess, I haven't come accross the reason yet. When I learned about this last I even wondered if Jesus riding the donkey was part of his Cynic attitude of breaking taboos.
 
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Nov 2016
428
Munich
#16
Yôḥānān;2972429 said:
In Greek cosmogony as far as I know Gaia is the first to emerge from Chaos along with Eros and she is the one who generate Ouranos the male figure who then fathers the Titans.
Gaia is a relic from prehistoric times when mother goddesses were dominant and generated sons (mostly in form of bulls) without male participation, as I wrote in another place in more detail. Ouranus was her son and her male partner in one, as, for example in Egyptian mythology, Re was the son of mother goddess Nut and her sexual partner in one (Kamutef = bull of his mother).

Yôḥānān;2972429 said:
The other is that Jesus made his entry in Jerusalem riding a donkey. And since the topic is about Isis I should mention the curiosity that at least in the Graeco-Roman cult the donkey was an animal detested by the godess, I haven't come accross the reason yet. When I learned about this last I even wondered if Jesus riding the donkey was part of his Cynic attitude of breaking taboos.
It´s more probable that a foal (young horse) is meant instead of a donkey, since in Mark 11 the animal is called ´πῶλον (polon)´ what means ´colt´, that is, a young horse. I think its ´official´ characterization as donkey is only symbolic cause an entry on a donkey had in those times an explicite peaceful meaning, while an entry on a horse connoted conquest by a king.

Seen from this angle, the term ´colt´ in the sense of young horse is most plausible since the entry of the Christian hero is actually understood as the entry of a king (messiah = king of Jews; as well as ´king of the world´ in a spiritual sense).

As to Isis and the donkey, there is only one connection which does not show any basic "destesting" of this animal by the goddess. In the novel "The golden Ass" by Apuleius the protagonist is by magic transformed into a donkey and restored to human shape by goddess Isis.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#17
πῶλος
I - foal, whether colt or filly
II - Young animal, of a Elephant, Camel
III - Young girl, maiden and less freq, Young man

This third definition is used in Isaiah 7:14, the masculine
form in 1 Samuel 17:56 and 1 Samuel 20:22.

-Cognates-

(Greek)
Fullon φύλλον ' Young Leaf
Ellos ἑλλός 'Young Deer, Fawn
Kallw κἄλλῳ ' Young fawn
Kalam καλάμη 'Young stalk
Epi-Phullis ἐπιφυλλίς 'Small grapes left for gleaners

(Hebrew)
OUL עול ' Folly, Badness, Baby, suckling, toddler
TPLE תפלה 'Folly'
NBL נבל 'Fool
TELE תהלה 'Folly
OLUMIN עלומיו 'Youth
OLME עלמה 'Young woman
OLM עלם ' Young man
OULL עולל 'Children, young grapes, act like a child, folly
OLE עלה 'young leaf

(Latin)
PAUL

In Samuel 16:20, SAUL is given a Donkey laden with Bread and Wine.


1st century AD (ca.). An early Jewish terracotta oil lamp. Red-slipped, with three voluted nozzles, molded with two figures of Silenus seated upon a donkey on either side of the discus, perhaps also to be interpreted as Balaam and the Ass (Numbers 22:21-35), with a cluster of grapes on one side, and a seven-branched menorah composed of dots toward the nozzles

https://menorah-bible.jimdo.com/english/ancient-menorahs/

Greek Word Study Tool
III. ἱερὸς π. Ἴσιδος, title of priest in Egypt, OGI739.8 (ii B.C.), PGrenf.2.20.5 (ii B.C.), PRein.10.5, al. (ii B.C.); π. alone, of a priest of Demeter and Persephone, IG5(1).1444 (Messene, iv/iii B.C.).
The Dionysian mysteries were popular in Alexander, Egypt.
C. Suetonius Tranquillus, Divus Vespasianus, chapter 7


Suet. Ves. 7
A poor man who was blind, and another who was lame, came both together before him, when he was seated on the tribunal, imploring him to heal them,3 and saying that they were admonished in a dream by the god Serapis to seek his aid, who assured them that he would restore sight to the one by anointing his eyes with his spittle, and give strength to the leg of the other,
 
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Feb 2012
3,836
Portugal
#18
Gaia is a relic from prehistoric times when mother goddesses were dominant and generated sons (mostly in form of bulls) without male participation, as I wrote in another place in more detail. Ouranus was her son and her male partner in one, as, for example in Egyptian mythology, Re was the son of mother goddess Nut and her sexual partner in one (Kamutef = bull of his mother).



It´s more probable that a foal (young horse) is meant instead of a donkey, since in Mark 11 the animal is called ´πῶλον (polon)´ what means ´colt´, that is, a young horse. I think its ´official´ characterization as donkey is only symbolic cause an entry on a donkey had in those times an explicite peaceful meaning, while an entry on a horse connoted conquest by a king.

Seen from this angle, the term ´colt´ in the sense of young horse is most plausible since the entry of the Christian hero is actually understood as the entry of a king (messiah = king of Jews; as well as ´king of the world´ in a spiritual sense).

As to Isis and the donkey, there is only one connection which does not show any basic "destesting" of this animal by the goddess. In the novel "The golden Ass" by Apuleius the protagonist is by magic transformed into a donkey and restored to human shape by goddess Isis.

Thank you very much for the info. It was exactly what I read in the "Golden Ass" that led me to think that Isis detested donkeys.

From the Penguin Classics edition:


this vile beast that has always been so detestful to me.
From the online translation:
Don’t hesitate to join the crowd and, trusting in my protection, push your way towards the priest, then as if you wished to kiss his hand pluck gently at the roses with your mouth, and so at once throw off that wretched form of the most detestable of creatures.https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/TheGoldenAssXI.php
BTW- I don't know if it was intended but some parts of the story actually give a very moving and humane image of the sufferings a donkey would undergo at human hands. I actually attributed it to the empathic attitude that at least a middle Platonist like Plutarch, (being that Lucius Apuleius was also a Platonist) showed towards animals in his works. But the core of the story was previous to Apuleius and it might be just my interpretation.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#19
And the Hebrew word for donkey does not mean red wine. Wine is chemer, donkey is chamor. Read and red are spelled very similar too, but mean completely different things.
Isaiah 27:2 - Vineyard of red wine.
*כרם חמד (KRM HMR) : κρεμῶ ἡμερίς "Hanging Vines"

The Septuagint version of the Text, reads ἀμπελὼν καλός

κρεμῶ καλός > כרמל "beautiful Vines"
Mount Carmel - "Mountain of fair vines"

חמד - to be reddened, boil up.

חמד also the etymology of Gomorrah, the Greek read the name as Γομορρας and in 1 Sam 16:20, חמור "Ass" is transliterated Γομορ, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is about wine and Salt is the by product of Wine fermentation and Sodom means "Salt/Plantation" , Gomorrah means "cultivated vines". It's all winery.

Deuteronomy 32:32
For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields (shĕdemah) of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

Psalm 78:47
He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.

The First man, Adam , his name means RED, cognate with οἶνος/αἱμάς
and Noah planted a Vineyard "Hanging Gardens", Why does the Torah but
so much emphases on Vineyards, Fruits, Mulberries, grapes, it's all Dionysian.


Hanging Grapes, Wine Vat , Grape stomping


grape stomping



This is a JEWISH Coin, Why the Grapes and Lyre
 
Nov 2016
428
Munich
#20
Yôḥānān;2972591 said:
It was exactly what I read in the "Golden Ass" that led me to think that Isis detested donkeys.
Thanks for info, too. I didn´t read the "Golden Ass" for years, so I forgot the cited passage. However, that Isis hates donkeys is just an invention of the author, since there are no other sources showing such an attitude of the goddess towards donkeys. In all antique cultures, donkeys had generally a low image and were regarded as ridiculous and stupid. So the shape of a donkey in the "Golden Ass" merely forms a diametral contrast to an initiated human, as Lucius becomes after being transformed back into human shape. The message seems to be that non-initiated people are like donkeys in contrast to initiated people in human shape. From there, Isis´ hate of donkeys is understandable since she "hates" spiritually blind people.

The negative attitude towards donkeys changed to a certain degree only among the Jews, as some passages in the OT show, e.g. Balaam´s ass which serves as mouthpiece for Yahweh. Mark 11 is often referred to as an Christian example, however it is quite doubtable that a donkey is meant.
 

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