Goddess Isis as model for Virgin Mary

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,947
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#31
Paradoxes a part, the first problem we have to face dealing with Ancient Egyptian "religion" is that it wasn't a religion as we intend it today. It was an aspect of life, the relation between material and spiritual spheres was part of daily existence. They didn't see a discontinuity and the "religion" was a system of rituals, traditions, beliefs and magic to manage the existence. Also their conceptions of "good" and "evil" weren't absolute [there is who sustains that Seth was what is the Devil for us, but it's not the case, not at all].


The second not irrelevant problem we have to deal with is that the civilization of KmT lasted more than 3,000 years and this means that [despite their accuracy in transmitting and preserving their tradition] Egyptian "religion" evolved. Overall when foreign influences begun to be pervasive [Persians, Greeks, Romans ...].


The first thing to pay attention is to keep Hellenic Egypt in its own context.


In any case we can say that at least about the iconography of Virgin Mary a certain influence of Isis is visible [may be early Christians copied from her temples, which btw in some cases became churches or had substituted by Churches, like at Bologna, Italy].
 
Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#32
We should also consider there are two disting civilizations/cultures that adopted the cult of Isis, the Egyptian and the Graeco-roman. The Greeks adopted it by the 3rd century BC and converted it to the mystery format even though they kept visual elements of the "franchise" like the priests dressing in rigour with shaved heads and all.

I hope the author of the video doesn't mind sharing here, but here is a guided tour to the temple in Pompeii where the mysteries took place. There were others, in Rome, Messenia Greece, etc... They look a bit different from the Egyptian counterparts:





One interesting point of debate would be the diifference between the Egyptian cult and the Greco-roman version which according to wikipedia was modeled after the Eleusinian mysteries which is probably not wrong to say were the most prestigious of all.
 
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Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#33
Is not "miraculous" birth a recurring theme in multiple mythologies (including greek, roman, egyptian and others) ?

The mention to the "virgin birth of Aion" appears in the Eleusinian mysteries. The theme of suffering was also common in the mysteries, rapping, dismemberment, crucifixion. That's why I made my peace with Greek paganism. After all it is the higher truths of which the myths are only images that really matter.
 
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Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#34
Yôḥānān;2973440 said:
The mention to the "virgin birth of Aion" appears in the Eleusinian mysteries. The theme of suffering was also common in the mysteries, rapping, dismemberment, crucifixion. That's why I made my peace with Greek paganism. After all it is the higher truths of which the myths are only images that really matter.
Really? Which Mystery cult had a theme of crucifixion? There is none that I know of, nor was "suffering" a common element. Mithras couldn't be said to suffer, not really.

The only mystery cult where dismemgerment comes into play is that of Isis, and that dismemberment happened not to Isis but here husband Osiris. One cult having that element is hardly common.

The only reference to the "virgin birth of Aion" is from a 4th century Christian bishop, and at that late date, the cult likely borrowed the concept from the Christians - mystery cults were known to borrow ideas from other religions. And it is possible the bishop misunderstood the beliefs of the cult, his interpretation influenced by his own belief, and might not reflect the actual belief of the cult.

So:

1. Name tne mystery cults where suffering was a theme

2. Name tne mystery cults where crucifixion was a theme

3. Name the mystery cult where dismemberment was a theme
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#36
Dionysus Cult.

Crucifixion




Dismemberment


Suffering
The torment of Marsyas is not part of any mystery cult, but was just a popular myth.

There is nothing in tne Dionysus cult about crucifixion, and that one image doesn't show anything, without knowning its background. If the image comes from tne 3rd or 4th century, then the imagery could have been influenced by well established Christian belief, mystery religions borrowed from other religions.
 
Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#37
Really? Which Mystery cult had a theme of crucifixion? There is none that I know of, nor was "suffering" a common element. Mithras couldn't be said to suffer, not really.

The only mystery cult where dismemgerment comes into play is that of Isis, and that dismemberment happened not to Isis but here husband Osiris. One cult having that element is hardly common.

The only reference to the "virgin birth of Aion" is from a 4th century Christian bishop, and at that late date, the cult likely borrowed the concept from the Christians - mystery cults were known to borrow ideas from other religions. And it is possible the bishop misunderstood the beliefs of the cult, his interpretation influenced by his own belief, and might not reflect the actual belief of the cult.

So:

1. Name tne mystery cults where suffering was a theme

2. Name tne mystery cults where crucifixion was a theme

3. Name the mystery cult where dismemberment was a theme



You urgently need to study the Mysteries. I mentioned the crucifixion in comparison to other forms of violence that appear in the mysteries and also because I tend to believe Christianity started as a mystery created by hellenized Jews. However I will not claim there aren't other crucifixions as there were more mysteries than I will ever learn about.
The subject of suffering is present in all that have been mentioned so far and played a central role, you only need to research, I will add an extra from S. Angus "The Mystery Religions", about the festival of the Magna Mother pertaining the myth of Attis:"...the myth of Attis was rehearsed in a passion-play. The sacred pine tree under which the unfaithful youth had mutilated itself was cut down. The tree then, prepared like a corpse was carried into the sanctuary, accompanied by the statue of the god and other symbols. Then followed the lamentation of Attis[...] On the Day of Blood the tree was buried while the mystae in frenzied dances gashed themselves with knives to prove their participation in the sorrows of the god that they might fellowship in his joy."


About dismemberment it is a central theme in the myth of Dyonisius, I thought it was common knowledge that he was dismembered by the Titans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus#The_sparagmos
 
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Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#38
The only reference to the "virgin birth of Aion" is from a 4th century Christian bishop, and at that late date, the cult likely borrowed the concept from the Christians -
Why would the most prestigious mystery in the empire which had been around for near 1500 years before Christianity, into which there were Roman emperors who were initiated copy from a semi-outlaw cult at odds with the state?
 
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Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#39
And here is the calendar of the "holy week" of Cybele and Attis in Roman times already partially described above:


  • March 15 (Ides): Canna intrat ("The Reed enters"), marking the birth of Attis and his exposure in the reeds along the Phrygian river Sangarius,[70] where he was discovered—depending on the version—by either shepherds or Cybele herself.[71] The reed was gathered and carried by the cannophores.[72]
  • March 22: Arbor intrat ("The Tree enters"), commemorating the death of Attis under a pine tree. The dendrophores ("tree bearers") cut down a tree,[73] suspended from it an image of Attis,[74] and carried it to the temple with lamentations. The day was formalized as part of the official Roman calendar under Claudius.[75] A three-day period of mourning followed.[76]

  • March 23: on the Tubilustrium, an archaic holiday to Mars, the tree was laid to rest at the temple of the Magna Mater, with the traditional beating of the shields by Mars' priests the Salii and the lustration of the trumpets perhaps assimilated to the noisy music of the Corybantes.[77]
  • March 24: Sanguem or Dies Sanguinis ("Day of Blood"), a frenzy of mourning when the devotees whipped themselves to sprinkle the altars and effigy of Attis with their own blood; some performed the self-castrations of the Galli. The "sacred night" followed, with Attis placed in his ritual tomb.[78]
  • March 25 (vernal equinox on the Roman calendar): Hilaria ("Rejoicing"), when Attis was reborn.[79] Some early Christian sources associate this day with the resurrection of Jesus.[80] Damascius attributed a "liberation from Hades" to the Hilaria.[81]
  • March 26: Requietio ("Day of Rest").[82]
  • March 27: Lavatio ("Washing"), noted by Ovid and probably an innovation under Augustus,[83] when Cybele's sacred stone was taken in procession from the Palatine temple to the Porta Capena and down the Appian Way to the stream called Almo, a tributary of the Tiber. There the stone and sacred iron implements were bathed "in the Phrygian manner" by a red-robed priest. The quindecimviri attended. The return trip was made by torchlight, with much rejoicing. The ceremony alluded to, but did not reenact, Cybele's original reception in the city, and seems not to have involved Attis.[84]
  • March 28: Initium Caiani, sometimes interpreted as initiations into the mysteries of the Magna Mater and Attis at the Gaianum, near the Phrygianum sanctuary at the Vatican Hill.[85]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#40
Yôḥānān;2974011 said:
You urgently need to study the Mysteries. I mentioned the crucifixion in comparison to other forms of violence that appear in the mysteries and also because I tend to believe Christianity started as a mystery created by hellenized Jews. However I will not claim there aren't other crucifixions as there were more mysteries than I will ever learn about. 
So you claim about crucifixion is being common is not true? Saying I need to study the Mysteries doesn't answer the question. You made a claim, it is up to you to support it with facts. There are lots of mystery religions, and the ones I have seen so far, cult of Mithras, Isis, do not support your claims. I asking you to provide a couple examples, which surely is possoble for you if it was common as claimed

While I also believe that Christianity was a kind of Mystery Cult, it was started by Jews in Palestine, although in less tnan a generation it was taken over by hellenized Jews. The settings, the original apostles are all clearly based in a Palestine setting, and the language of Jesus echoes that found in tne Dead Sea scrolls, again arguing for a Palestine setting. However, if you mean Christianity in the form we have it was primarily by hellenized Jews, the original cult being a bit different, then yes, you might be right.

The subject of suffering is present in all that have been mentioned so far and played a central role, you only need to research, I will add an extra from S. Angus "The Mystery Religions", about the festival of the Magna Mother pertaining the myth of Attis:"...the myth of Attis was rehearsed in a passion-play. The sacred pine tree under which the unfaithful youth had mutilated itself was cut down. The tree then, prepared like a corpse was carried into the sanctuary, accompanied by the statue of the god and other symbols. Then followed the lamentation of Attis[...] On the Day of Blood the tree was buried while the mystae in frenzied dances gashed themselves with knives to prove their participation in the sorrows of the god that they might fellowship in his joy." 
OK, I see from your previous post the source.

Common neans more than a single example. What is your other example/

About dismemberment it is a central theme in the myth of Dyonisius, I thought it was common knowledge that he was dismembered by the Titans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus#The_sparagmos
Only some sources identify Dionysus witn Zagreus, and the first clear identification with the dismembered does not occur until Plutarch in late first centuries, after Christianity arose. There appears to be 2 different Dionysus, with different origins, and tne god of wine Dionysus is not the Dionysus who was dismembered.

Anyways, common means more than one. What is your other Mystery Cult example?
 
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