Goddess Isis as model for Virgin Mary

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
6,866
#41
Yôḥānān;2974030 said:
Why would the most prestigious mystery in the empire which had been around for near 1500 years before Christianity, into which there were Roman emperors who were initiated copy from a semi-outlaw cult at odds with the state?
Mystery cults were around for 1500 years, and Rome itseld didn't exist 1500 years befor Christianity. Rome was only founded sometime in the 8th century BCE.

As for why they would copy Christians, by the 4th century CE they had become the main imperial religion of the empire, and was far more popular. Naturally they would want to copy Christianity.
 
Jun 2012
7,033
Malaysia
#42
While I also believe that Christianity was a kind of Mystery Cult, it was started by Jews in Palestine, although in less tnan a generation it was taken over by hellenized Jews.
In which case, the Christianity that eventually prevailed, cud hv been a completely Hellenic makeover, as compared to the original Christianity first taught & preached by Jesus.
 
Feb 2012
3,834
Portugal
#43
So you claim about crucifixion is being common is not true? Saying I need to study the Mysteries doesn't answer the question. You made a claim, it is up to you to support it with facts. There are lots of mystery religions, and the ones I have seen so far, cult of Mithras, Isis, do not support your claims. I asking you to provide a couple examples, which surely is possoble for you if it was common as claimed

While I also believe that Christianity was a kind of Mystery Cult, it was started by Jews in Palestine, although in less tnan a generation it was taken over by hellenized Jews. The settings, the original apostles are all clearly based in a Palestine setting, and the language of Jesus echoes that found in tne Dead Sea scrolls, again arguing for a Palestine setting. However, if you mean Christianity in the form we have it was primarily by hellenized Jews, the original cult being a bit different, then yes, you might be right.

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OK, I see from your previous post the source.

Common neans more than a single example. What is your other example/
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Only some sources identify Dionysus witn Zagreus, and the first clear identification with the dismembered does not occur until Plutarch in late first centuries, after Christianity arose. There appears to be 2 different Dionysus, with different origins, and tne god of wine Dionysus is not the Dionysus who was dismembered.

Anyways, common means more than one. What is your other Mystery Cult example?



I already gave you all the clues you (or anyone else, need) to research if you are really interested in understanding the mysteries. I will only point in what you wrote that the parts of Palestine that appear in the gospels were hellenized.
 
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Feb 2012
3,834
Portugal
#44
Mystery cults were around for 1500 years, and Rome itseld didn't exist 1500 years befor Christianity. Rome was only founded sometime in the 8th century BCE.

As for why they would copy Christians, by the 4th century CE they had become the main imperial religion of the empire, and was far more popular. Naturally they would want to copy Christianity.
If they copyed from someone it would make more sense they both copied from Virgin Athena since Eleusis was in Attica and came to be under Athenian jurisdiction. Even though the Virgin herself didn't had exactly a virgin birth, she was involved in the birth of Erectheus whom she raised and who had similar physical features to Aion. I haven't studied this thoroughly and is just a guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erichthonius_of_Athens
 
Feb 2012
3,834
Portugal
#45
In which case, the Christianity that eventually prevailed, cud hv been a completely Hellenic makeover, as compared to the original Christianity first taught & preached by Jesus.

It could have happened earlier:


And how would the Hellenistic world have influenced Jesus?
Jesus apparently grew up in Galilee which was at that time under Herod Antipas undergoing a form of Hellenization. There was a continuation of the program of Herod the Great, the father of Herod Antipas. And that Hellenization was most visible in a place like Sepphoris which was being reconstructed during the youth of Jesus. It was visible in several other cities around Galilee. A place like Beth-shean, for instance, which still has a magnificent theater dating from the Hellenistic period. We have clear evidence in all of that architectural remains Hellenism was having a strong impact even on Galilee during this period.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/hellenisticculture.html

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...tween-galilee-and-judea-in-the-time-of-jesus/
 
Feb 2012
3,834
Portugal
#46
I wrote above that "Erectheus whom she raised and who had similar physical features to Aion" but actually this is not the case, what happened is that Aion appears associated with a snake in some representations and Erectheus as having the lower body of a snake. So I apologize for this.
Also this virgin birth in antiquity is something I'm not that familiar with and the references I find come from Christians authors.
That the title of Virgin and condition of virginity was important and bestowed to Athena and Artemis there is ample evidence. Like there is ample evidence of other similarities with other Christian themes like the theme of suffering. The virgin birth however I would like to find more evidence.
 
Feb 2012
3,834
Portugal
#47
Last edited:
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#48
People tend too ignore that the PUNIC people had temples throughout the Mediterranean so what they perceive as the cult of Isis is that of Astarte.

MARY is a Punic name meaning rebellious, bitter wine or perhaps a water nymph.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
6,866
#49
Yôḥānān;2974174 said:
If they copyed from someone it would make more sense they both copied from Virgin Athena since Eleusis was in Attica and came to be under Athenian jurisdiction. Even though the Virgin herself didn't had exactly a virgin birth, she was involved in the birth of Erectheus whom she raised and who had similar physical features to Aion. I haven't studied this thoroughly and is just a guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erichthonius_of_Athens
Isis was more popular than Athena. Besides the warrior image of Athena/Minerva did not mesh well with the image of Mary, and the relation of Isis to Horus better matched Mary to Jesus. The image of Madoona and child Jesus seems to be copied from the images of Isis with a young Horus. (Not surprising - painters who made a living painting the Isis and Horus, just switched over to painting Mary and Jesus, and painted what they knew. Everybody was happy. It wasn't until many centuries later you got iconoclast in the East, and Puritans in the West that objected.)

That Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born is part the canonical gospels and so is dogma. That ir was believed Mary remained a virgina all her like, like Athena, is not necessaeily the case for early Christians. The Gosepls don't say anything about Jesus' brothers and sisters being only half brothers and sisters. While Catholics and Orthodox believe Mary was a virgin all her like, Protestants don't, and are ok with Jesus having full flooded siblings.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
6,866
#50
People tend too ignore that the PUNIC people had temples throughout the Mediterranean so what they perceive as the cult of Isis is that of Astarte.

MARY is a Punic name meaning rebellious, bitter wine or perhaps a water nymph.
Wrong as usually. Mary is from the Hebrew, not Punic.

Punic and Hebrew are both Semitic languages, so the meaning may be similar in both, but i have seen no evidence Mary was ever a Carthagian name, and it became a popular Coptic/Egyptian name only with the rise of Christianity.
 

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