Goddess Isis as model for Virgin Mary

Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#51
Isis was more popular than Athena. Besides the warrior image of Athena/Minerva did not mesh well with the image of Mary, and the relation of Isis to Horus better matched Mary to Jesus. The image of Madoona and child Jesus seems to be copied from the images of Isis with a young Horus. (Not surprising - painters who made a living painting the Isis and Horus, just switched over to painting Mary and Jesus, and painted what they knew. Everybody was happy. It wasn't until many centuries later you got iconoclast in the East, and Puritans in the West that objected.)

That Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born is part the canonical gospels and so is dogma. That ir was believed Mary remained a virgina all her like, like Athena, is not necessaeily the case for early Christians. The Gosepls don't say anything about Jesus' brothers and sisters being only half brothers and sisters. While Catholics and Orthodox believe Mary was a virgin all her like, Protestants don't, and are ok with Jesus having full flooded siblings.

I think you forgot we were discussing the Eleusinian mysteries and Persephone's virgin birth of Aion, not Isis. The reason for copying it would be to raise Persephone's status towards her Virgin neighbour goddess Athena and maybe Artemis too. Though I am speculating too much for such shallow evidence and it is even a childish reasoning I'm making.


BTW I agree that Mary and Isis embody the similar "mother of God, mother of all" attributes and Athena embodies divine wisdom and so they are about different things.
 
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Feb 2012
3,888
Portugal
#52
Back to the topic, the book in the link below mentions the contrast of perceptions in the ancient world between the moral demands of the cult of Isis and the libertine behavior ancient writers associated with it. However similar accusations were made of other cults and in fact even Paul wrote in the epistles about this regarding Christianity itself, leading some people to sugest it started as an orgiac cult.
https://books.google.pt/books?id=1M...onepage&q=isis priests crucified rome&f=false
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#54
Yôḥānān;2976091 said:
I think you forgot we were discussing the Eleusinian mysteries and Persephone's virgin birth of Aion, not Isis. The reason for copying it would be to raise Persephone's status towards her Virgin neighbour goddess Athena and maybe Artemis too. Though I am speculating too much for such shallow evidence and it is even a childish reasoning I'm making.


BTW I agree that Mary and Isis embody the similar "mother of God, mother of all" attributes and Athena embodies divine wisdom and so they are about different things.
The reference to Aion being born to Kore (Pesephone) the Virgin was made gy a Christian writer in the 4th century. There is no hint of the idea before that, and in most other portrayals Persephone is not said to be a virgin, but in fact is married to Pluto, implying she was not a virgin. By the 4th century, Christianity was the enpires imperial religion, and it would not be surprising that they borrowed the idea of a virgin birth from the Chrisitans, or it could be that Epiphaneus misunderstoond the pagan beliefs ne wrote about, falsely interpreting them in light of his own Christian beliefs. A single reference, unsupported by anything else, raises questions about accuracy of what he said.

Before the Chrisian era, there was no identification of Aion with Dionysius, and Artemis and Athena usually are not protrayed as mothers.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#55
Semitic = Phoenix
????. Semitic is language group, Phoenix is a mythical bird that is periodically reborn from its own ashes. How are they equal


In the Gospel of Mark her name is Μαρία, note the effeminate Latin ending
and when you emasculate the name, you get the name Marius.

A popular name in the Roman Empire at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_(gens)
Maria is not the female version of Marius, rather it is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Miriam. It is merely a coincidence that it looks like the female version of Marius, but Maria was not poular among the pagan Romans, it was popular among Greek speaking Jews.

Such coincidences happen - Ren, in European languages, is short for Renee, while Ren is also a boy's name in Japanese. Look the same, but different origins.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#56
They are equal because the word Semitic and Phoenix are cognates.

Mariam (מרים ) the sister of Moses , Her name means 'Rebellious woman' and Mars is the God of Rebellion..

רִיב (RIB) "Rebel, Revolt, Strife"
> מרִיב (MRIB) > מרים (MRIM)

μάρναμαι (Marnamai ) "Battle, Strife, War"

The Hebrew word for War is מלחמה ( MLEME) and this is πολεμέω (Polemew)
( πλεμέ)PLEME = (מלחמה )MLEME

*MLEME / MREME ( מרים )


Mars and Miriam are cognates.
 
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Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#57
They are equal because the word Semitic and Phoenix are cognates.

Mariam (מרים ) the sister of Moses , Her name means 'Rebellious woman' and Mars is the God of Rebellion..

רִיב (RIB) "Rebel, Revolt, Strife"
> מרִיב (MRIB) > מרים (MRIM)

μάρναμαι (Marnamai ) "Battle, Strife, War"

The Hebrew word for War is מלחמה ( MLEME) and this is πολεμέω (Polemew)
( πλεμέ)PLEME = (מלחמה )MLEME

*MLEME / MREME ( מרים )


Mars and Miriam are cognates.
Mirriam is believed to be originally derived from the Egyptian name meaning "Beloved of Ammun", but the word is similar to the Hebrew word meaning bitter, rebellious, so your are right on that.

But Mars was not the god strife or rebellion. Mars was the god of war, as in organized combat. That is how he differs from his Greek counterpart Ares., who represented the strike, the chaos, and violende of war. Mars represents the more orderly, disciplined aspects of war. Think martial law, martial arts.

Please provide an ancient text that refers to Mars as "God of Rebellion".
 
Last edited:
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#58
Mirriam is believed to be originally derived from the Egyptian name meaning "Beloved of Ammun", but the word is similar to the Hebrew word meaning bitter, rebellious, so your are right on that.

But Mars was not the god strife or rebellion. Mars was the god of war, as in organized combat. That is how he differs from his Greek counterpart Ares., who represented the strike, the chaos, and violende of war. Mars represents the more orderly, disciplined aspects of war. Think martial law, martial arts.

Please provide an ancient text that refers to Mars as "God of Rebellion".
Miriam is feminine so most likely referring too the War like virgins(parthenoi )
of Dionysus, Mimallones , Klodones , Bacchantes or Maenad.

The Bacchae (Dionysus - God of War or צבאות )
And he assumes a certain part of war, for when an army stands in battle array, panic will sometimes sweep it through and rout, before it even sets hand to javelin, That too is a madness Dionysus sends.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#59
Miriam is feminine so most likely referring too the War like virgins(parthenoi )
of Dionysus, Mimallones , Klodones , Bacchantes or Maenad.

The Bacchae (Dionysus - God of War or צבאות )
And he assumes a certain part of war, for when an army stands in battle array, panic will sometimes sweep it through and rout, before it even sets hand to javelin, That too is a madness Dionysus sends.
What ancient sources calls Dionysus the god of war? That he was said to send madness, yer, but even if he sends madness to soldiers it doesn't make him a god of war.
 

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