Gustavus Adolphus vs Philip II of Macedon vs Oda Nobunaga

best general

  • Gustavus Adolphus

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Philip II of Macedon

    Votes: 12 54.5%
  • Oda Nobunaga

    Votes: 6 27.3%

  • Total voters
    22
Jun 2010
136
Fallingwater
Who rates higher as a military commander of the 3? Who would have achieved more if they had not died when they did?
 

nuclearguy165

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
4,847
Ohio, USA
I'm gonna say Philip. I don't know enough about Nobunaga, and Gustavus was honestly kind of a mixed bag as an independent campaigner, though certainly with some brilliant feats during the Rain am Lech campaign and in following up after Breitenfeld (not to mention that victory, of course). In other words, his conduct from September of 1631-May of 1632 was brilliant, but considerably less so otherwise. His Polish campaign enjoyed only mixed success, though certainly the importance of taking Riga can hardly be underestimated. He was repulsed from Pskov while at war with Russia. The Kalmar War took place while he was quite young, so it's limited success is hard to judge, though it certainly doesn't compare favorably with his descendant Charles XII, who went to war at the same initial age.

Meanwhile, Duke Valentino has already convinced me as much as I need about Philip, beyond what I already knew from T.A. Dodge, to make him my choice here.
 
May 2017
225
Monterrey
I'm gonna say Philip. I don't know enough about Nobunaga, and Gustavus was honestly kind of a mixed bag as an independent campaigner, though certainly with some brilliant feats during the Rain am Lech campaign and in following up after Breitenfeld (not to mention that victory, of course). In other words, his conduct from September of 1631-May of 1632 was brilliant, but considerably less so otherwise. His Polish campaign enjoyed only mixed success, though certainly the importance of taking Riga can hardly be underestimated. He was repulsed from Pskov while at war with Russia. The Kalmar War took place while he was quite young, so it's limited success is hard to judge, though it certainly doesn't compare favorably with his descendant Charles XII, who went to war at the same initial age.

Meanwhile, Duke Valentino has already convinced me as much as I need about Philip, beyond what I already knew from T.A. Dodge, to make him my choice here.
OTOH, Charles went to war with an army that was built upon the experiences learned during Gustavus' campaigns in Poland. Before Gustavus the swedes seemed to suffer one defeat after another there.
 

nuclearguy165

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
4,847
Ohio, USA
OTOH, Charles went to war with an army that was built upon the experiences learned during Gustavus' campaigns in Poland. Before Gustavus the swedes seemed to suffer one defeat after another there.
That is true. I give Gustavus as much credit as anyone else for the military reforms he introduced, even if they were largely based on ones already made by Maurice of Nassau for the Dutch; another military leader who I would rate more highly as a reformer and army creator than I would as a field commander.
 

Duke Valentino

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,340
Australia
The thing is that Macedonia was on the brink of existential servitude/dissolution as an entity. I don’t think any king has come to the throne with such odds against him as Philip, nor have they simultaneously done so much for the military, economy and social structures of a kingdom whilst also taking a backwater and transferring it into one of the super powers of the ancient world.
 
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Jun 2010
136
Fallingwater
The thing is that Macedonia was on the brink of existential servitude/dissolution as an entity. I don’t think any king has come to the throne with such odds against him as Philip, nor have they simultaneously done so much for the military, economy and social structures of a kingdom whilst also taking a backwater and transferring it into one of the super powers of the ancient world.
No one else in history?
 
Feb 2019
1,039
Serbia
I voted Phillip, I know next to nothing about Oda Nobunaga and while I find Gustavus to be brilliant I think that Phillip had to face greater challenges and left a greater legacy.