Had China democratized in 1989, what would the last 30 years have looked like for China?

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,400
#82
That would depend--what do the people in China themselves actually want?

@HackneyedScribe previously provided a link to a poll that said that only 29% of Tibetans actually want to secede from China. I wonder if the figures in the Uyghur-majority Kashgar Valley are going to be higher than this; possibly, given China's recent treatment of the Uyghurs.
That's where the lack of a free formation of opinion in a society becomes a problem. It's hard to know what the public wants if the public is constantly being operated on by a state that is not accountable and lacks actual feed-back loops to a freely formed public opinion.
 
Likes: Futurist
Feb 2011
6,428
#83
As I said:

Also people need to address the inconsistency of "free media" before bringing it up, despite how the one drop of truth is consistently drowned in an ocean of BS. Even something as small as Winnie the Pooh is drowned in BS. China censors Winnie the Pooh? Any Chinese can go into a Chinese search engine and see that's not true. So it's really hard to pass this off as some honest mistake that everyone made at the same time. Just one example amongst many, and the vast majority of people fell for it hook line and sinker. The most effective propaganda is the one in which people don't know it's propaganda.




As far as I'm concerned everybody is exposed to restricted information. Some hides the truth by drowning it in lies, others simply covers up the truth.
 
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Likes: Futurist
Oct 2013
4,564
Canada
#84
Fair enough. Once accomplished, then what?
Once accomplished, every Chinese citizen should put ballots into a box every 4 years just for shits and giggles.

Or, the question is malformed. It asserts that there is a progression with Western Liberal Democracy as the end. No. China is better off running itself with its own unique political system.

That's where the lack of a free formation of opinion in a society becomes a problem. It's hard to know what the public wants if the public is constantly being operated on by a state that is not accountable and lacks actual feed-back loops to a freely formed public opinion.
Actually the Chinese government has actual feed-back loops, that's why it enjoys such high legitimacy in the eyes of Chinese citizens and Chinese diaspora who don't even live there and have the same access to "free" media as you do.

We can't even be sure most people here in the West understand what they are talking about because the "free" Western media on China is mostly a hodgepodge of proven lies, yellow journalism, and sensationalism, with little actual objective journalism.
 
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Oct 2013
4,564
Canada
#86
What are China's feedback loops?
Very simply by listening to what people want. The CCP is expert in conducting research, short and long-term studies. It is a party of 80+ million, and they feed up information on what what people want, how they feel, etc...

The government use the people's needs and wants as research data and consultation on what to do. It does a very good in using that information in realising Chinese aspirations and national goals. We could see the results by looking at China's track record and high approval for the CCP.

I'd recommend:

The China Model: Political Meritocracy and the Limits of Democracy by Daniel A. Bell
 
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Likes: Futurist

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,487
India
#87
Historically China has had huge civil wars and genocidal levels deaths in wars when ruling dynasty was kicked out.

The aftermath of Qing victory over the Ming dynasty decimated Sichuan and south western provinces. Taiping rebellion resulted in 20-30 million dead. Dunguan series of revolts resulted in around 15 millions death. Aftermath of Qing dynasty resulted in warlords and civil war and invited Japanese invasions.

So Chinese people are very nervous when this talk of changing power structure comes. With some very good justifications.

China saw what happened to USSR after democratic reforms. Everything went down for Russia and central Asian republics for more than a decade.
Civil wars, inflation, joblessness and so on. Chinese are also a risk averse people.

so people should give some slack to the Chinese people. They are not idiots and they have not been brainwashed by CCP. People genuinely like the communists in China.
90 percent Chinese are Hans so thinking USSR type disintegration for China looks bizarre. KMT failed to keep China united so communism flourished. also there is no guarantee that China type economic model under communism would work elsewhere. In places like India communism dont this ethnically diverse nation, only Parliamentary democracy would work.
 
Likes: Futurist

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