Hannibal Barca of Carthage was (Black)

Sep 2012
3,677
Bulgaria
#61
I think there's some confusion here.

I haven't written a word about Carthage previously and I haven't made any argument about Hannibal's specific ethnic background or ancestry beyond stating that the claim that he was black is false.

Another poster was making false statements and trying to separate some modern groups from their cultural heritage and homelands because of that poster's deep ignorance and that's all my posts were concerned with addressing. There are multiple medieval Arab sources (and some ancient European sources) describing the black presence in the Sahara. Nothing to do with some later slave trade.
Sorry about that. I was merely sharing my opinion and made a parallel to another ancient settlement. Regarding Hannibal lets not forget Abram Gannibal, Russian noble of African origin and adopted son of Peter I (due to arab and ottoman slave trade that happened centuries later i know). Though the mother of the first one is unknown, his sisters married to Numidian royalty so i guess everything is possible, including some royal sub-saharan ancestor in his pedigree.
 
Feb 2018
27
Belgium
#62
Is there is some study showing that modern Berbers that have black ancestry have more black ancestry than any medieval or ancient ones? I ask because if we are to go by medieval written sources there was actually a continuous influx of large numbers of other groups (particularly Arabs) into some of the Berber dominated areas for centuries besides just people from sub Saharan Africa. Just on the surface of it - and having read about the slave trade between North Africa and Saharan and Sub-saharan Africa in depth in the past - it hardly seems plausible that the genetic contribution of slaves of black origin was greater than that of other outsiders to the region. But if you have actual evidence to the contrary I would be interested in seeing it.
i didn't say that the genetic contribution of slaves was greater and of course i don't deny the arabic contribution so i think you misunderstood what i say
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,544
Benin City, Nigeria
#63
Sorry about that. I was merely sharing my opinion and made a parallel to another ancient settlement. Regarding Hannibal lets not forget Abram Gannibal, Russian noble of African origin and adopted son of Peter I (due to arab and ottoman slave trade that happened centuries later i know). Though the mother of the first one is unknown, his sisters married to Numidian royalty so i guess everything is possible, including some royal sub-saharan ancestor in his pedigree.
Oh, okay I see. I guess I misunderstood the intention of your post. My apologies.
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,544
Benin City, Nigeria
#64
i didn't say that the genetic contribution of slaves was greater and of course i don't deny the arabic contribution so i think you misunderstood what i say
I may have misunderstood you, yes you're probably right about that.

But the reason I was curious about the claim about a genetic impact from the slave trade making the modern Berbers have more black ancestry than in ancient times is because I read a paper a while back which stated that the black ancestry in Tunisian Berbers was actually very ancient, and not relatively recent (meaning that their black ancestry was mostly not from the slave trade). The paper I am referring to is "Mixed origin of the current Tunisian population from the analysis of Alu and Alu/STR compound systems" (2010) by El Moncer et al. Because of the no genetics rule of the forum we can't discuss it but I just thought I should name the paper I'm referring to in case you wanted to read it online.

And also my thinking was along the lines that any relatively recent black ancestry through the slave trade would be overshadowed by the (more substantial) relatively recent non-black ancestry from migrations of other groups. So many Berber populations shouldn't necessarily have become more black in terms of ancestry if that is taken into account.
 
Nov 2011
8,845
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#65
I know who Ejiofor is.

Isn't Guy Scott a Zambian? Or is he not?
One would have thought so, but Section 38 of the Constitution of Zambia says that he isn't Zambian enough.
Bit of lark really, the section was especially introduced with Scott in mind and follows the preamble declaration ".....RECOGNISE AND UPHOLD the multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious
and multi-cultural character of our Nation and our right to manage
our affairs and resources sustainably in a devolved system of
governance;"
 
Last edited:
Nov 2011
8,845
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#66
Interesting, but he was never a presidential candidate, so it seems this never became an issue.

But that law is not saying whether or not he is a Zambian. It is basically placing strict restrictions on which Zambians can run for and be elected president. It isn't much different from the corresponding law in the U.S. except that the U.S. law seems to only require one parent to meet the requirement of being born an American citizen.

For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger is not eligible to run for and be elected president of the United States but that does not mean he is not an American just because of that law.
The US has no restriction on the parentage of a Presidential candidate, only that he/she has been born "a natural citizen" of the United States and be over thirty-five years of age. "Natural born Citizen" does not, arguably, mean born IN the United States as John McCain's eligibility was contested on those grounds and opinion was that he qualified and that those born abroad under military or diplomatic protection and of US Citizens. Someone born IN the United States qualifies anyway, even if their parents come from Alpha Centauri or Pago-Pago.
 
Sep 2012
939
Spring, Texas
#67
You do know that Pago Pago is in American Samoa and everyone born there is automatically an American citizen? Perhaps you meant Apia in Samoa (former British Samoa)?

Pruitt
 
Nov 2011
8,845
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#68
You do know that Pago Pago is in American Samoa and everyone born there is automatically an American citizen? Perhaps you meant Apia in Samoa (former British Samoa)?

Pruitt
I did know that as I wrote it, but couldn't think of anywhere that sounded less likely without charges of racially-charged xenophobia.
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,544
Benin City, Nigeria
#69
One would have thought so, but Section 38 of the Constitution of Zambia says that he isn't Zambian enough.
Bit of lark really, the section was especially introduced with Scott in mind and follows the preamble declaration ".....RECOGNISE AND UPHOLD the multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious
and multi-cultural character of our Nation and our right to manage
our affairs and resources sustainably in a devolved system of
governance;"
What does section 38 say? In the version I looked at all I found was something about freedom of association.
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,544
Benin City, Nigeria
#70
The US has no restriction on the parentage of a Presidential candidate, only that he/she has been born "a natural citizen" of the United States and be over thirty-five years of age. "Natural born Citizen" does not, arguably, mean born IN the United States as John McCain's eligibility was contested on those grounds and opinion was that he qualified and that those born abroad under military or diplomatic protection and of US Citizens. Someone born IN the United States qualifies anyway, even if their parents come from Alpha Centauri or Pago-Pago.
I get what you're saying, and while what you said about how someone whose parents aren't citizens of the U.S. will be counted as a natural born citizen if they are born in the U.S. is true (for now), what I meant was that the U.S. actually has a similar notion of citizenship by birth which takes into account the citizenship of the parents. The difference is that the American version requires only one parent to have American citizenship for the child to be a citizen by birth.

We know this because Ted Cruz was allowed to run for president and the legal experts at the time basically all said he was eligible by virtue of having one American parent. He wasn't born in the U.S. of course and only one of his parents was a citizen and the reason he was born outside the U.S. had nothing to do with military or diplomatic service. But he was considered a natural born citizen. So that's a case of citizenship by birth (regardless of location of birth) except less strict than some other countries' requirements.

I would just say that the Zambian law is a slightly stricter version of the U.S. law.
 

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