Has anyone else run into a wall of conspiracy theories when trying to find legit stuff on ancient Egypt?

Feb 2013
4,243
Coastal Florida
#51
To be fair, a part Flinders Petrie [who substantially begun to develop the modern standards of Egyptology] and a few other researchers, early Egyptology was a world of pioneers and real raiders looking for something to sell to rich Europeans and Americans. With not a great national pride I can remind Giovanni Battista Belzoni who entered tombs and pyramids using explosive, to save time ... he was interested in what there was in a tomb, not in what they engraved on its walls ... so he destroyed them without a great concern.
Yeah, I saw some of that. I took a photo, I think from the Solar Boat museum, of the giant hole that was blasted out of the south side of the Great Pyramid. I'm glad they stopped blasting before causing too much damage.

This leaves room for alternative historians: not a few early explorers of Egypt hadn't academic preparation and they wrote some curious comments, expressing this or that persuasion, interpreting hieroglyphics in a not correct way ... usually these [today we say "not peer reviewed"] works are a nice base for the works of alternative historians who present these researchers as great Egyptologists [counting on the impact of the XIX century ... if they were Egyptologists in the XIX century they had to be great Egyptologists ... usually it's the other way round ...], basing their new reading of the past on their not proved assumptions.
I've seen this type of thing with other conspiracy theories too. I once debated a guy on Facebook about the earth being flat and, to support his claims, he produced an account of a surveyor that he found written somewhere on the internet. When I researched where it came from, I found that it was originally from a publication put out by the Flat Earth Society during the early days of the organization in the late 19th century. When I told the guy where it came from, he thought this lent even greater weight to his "evidence".
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,931
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#52
Yeah, I saw some of that. I took a photo, I think from the Solar Boat museum, of the giant hole that was blasted out of the south side of the Great Pyramid. I'm glad they stopped blasting before causing too much damage.



I've seen this type of thing with other conspiracy theories too. I once debated a guy on Facebook about the earth being flat and, to support his claims, he produced an account of a surveyor that he found written somewhere on the internet. When I researched where it came from, I found that it was originally from a publication put out by the Flat Earth Society during the early days of the organization in the late 19th century. When I told the guy where it came from, he thought this lent even greater weight to his "evidence".
Then you have to add the effect of the market. One of the most surprising consequences of the success of Graham Hancock and the theory of the Orion Correlation [developed by Bauval and Gilbert] was that, after riding the tiger of this correlation [which is not that absurd, but all to be discussed], Hancock was even able to make a new bestseller based on the idea that on Mars there was an advanced civilization disintegrated by a tremendous cosmic impact around 12,000 years ago. The "Martian Sphinx", according to Graham Hancock, was an evidence, an archaeological evidence, of the existence of that civilization. He even accused [not directly] NASA to have modified pictures and with the aid of the usual professional he "demonstrated" that in the region of Cydonia there were a Sphinx, several pyramids and a kind of fortified city. That work met a remarkable success and editors had no great troubles to publish it ... in that moment Hancock was equal to money ...
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#53
@dreamregent .

Fascinating stuff, thanks.

Yeah, I've read Velikovski, not quite sure what to make of him, apart from the fact the man was brilliant. Read two bools about 30 years ago. From memory but I think, at the time I couldn't quite grasp all of his arguments. Didn't he use Greek and other language quotations quite a bit?**

The time of the exodus is still being debated as far as I know. The Jewish position is that Ramses 11 was the Pharaoh of exodus. This has been arrived at by calculating 80 years from the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, I think. No problem that there is Egyptian record; they tended to either rewrite or ignore catastrophes .

As for the Akhenaten connection; some scholars have begun arguing that Judaism did not become monotheistic until much later than the putative Exodus. Literally hundreds of statues of a female god, thought to be Asheroth, Yahweh's wife, have been recently found in Israel well after any date proposed for the exodus. It's argued that the 'official' god was Yahweh alone, but that the ordinary people continued to worship Asheroth, in much the same way ordinary people in Amarna kept their old gods in private.

I have no issue with thinking that the Exodus is almost certainly pure myth and that Moses never existed..

I have reached this conclusion from my understanding that ancient Egypt never had a large slave population, and certainly not an entire people as slaves. Egypt did have slaves, usually prisoners of war, and usually for a set period. Further, Egypt simply did not need a large slave population for public works. ( the pyramid age had ended , what. 1000 years before the alleged slavery of the Israelites) Egypt had a large available workforce of free workers due to effect of the Nile's inundation on crop production.

Recent digs in Egypt have led to the conclusion that public works were done by a free, well paid workforce. A worker's village was found near /in the Valley Of The Kings, I think, but am not sure;


References:

"Did God Have A Wife? Archaeology And FolkReligion In Ancient Israel:" William G Dever-----interesting


"The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision Of Ancient Israel Ant TheOrigins Of Its Sacred Texts" Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Siberman--- Fascinating, pretty good book imo.There has also been at least one documentary about the dig and finds in the book on public TV here.

** re Velikovsky; I seem to remember being told by an alumnus that a student of his was teaching at the University Of British Columbia, well into the 1980's.
 
Feb 2011
761
Kitchener. Ont.
#54
The time of the exodus is still being debated as far as I know. The Jewish position is that Ramses 11 was the Pharaoh of exodus. This has been arrived at by calculating 80 years from the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, I think. No problem that there is Egyptian record; they tended to either rewrite or ignore catastrophes .
Speaking more like a Devils Advocate here, the Ramesside Exodus theorists always ignore the sentence in Judges 11:26 where it says the Israelites dwelt "300 years in Heshbon". That throws their chronology right out the window. In fact it suggests a departure around the time of the Hyksos.
But, I have no horse in this race.

I have reached this conclusion from my understanding that ancient Egypt never had a large slave population, and certainly not an entire people as slaves. Egypt did have slaves, usually prisoners of war, and usually for a set period.
I think you'll find that we know very little about how the Delta was run under Hyksos rule. I suspect you are judging the presence of slavery as we understand it in Egyptian Egypt, not Asiatic Egypt.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#55
Ah, interesting speculation.Ii hadn't thought about the Hykos. Just one problem; I m reluctant to accept the Torah as anything like a reliable source. Doubly so when figures are mentioned, whether it's the great age of some prophets, or as int the case of Exodus, population numbers. Also time lines. How on earth could it take . 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan.? Was this time needed to built up an army to conquer Caanan? Exodus 12.37 claims there were about 600, 000 men on foot, plus women and children. Surely enough to conquer Canaan?

I don't have a stake in which Pharaoh was in power during the Exodus either, but I'm interested.. Right now, I simply don't know, and am not fussed.

In terms of the Exodus and Moses; recent archaeological evidence seems to show no slaves in the kind of numbers claimed.

I think I'll stay with physical evidence. My understanding is that the Torah is the oral mythology of a people who became the Jews. That it was first written down around 700 bce., after the Jews left bondage in Babylon.

Yahweh was originally a Sumerian storm god, El. He had a wife, called Asheroth, who the Jews made int a demon.The account of the flood , in Genesis has some striking similarities to the flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Mosaic law has some interesting similarities with Hammurabi's code. Also, like Mosaic law, Hammurabi's laws have an emphasis on restitution as much as on justice.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
2,654
Australia
#56
Let's not forget the Lord of Sedge and the Bee ( and the helicopter and 'hand tank' ) :)


1546371494381.png



and its not just Egypt, next we could start on Sth America



1546371323914.png
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#57
Let's not forget the Lord of Sedge and the Bee ( and the helicopter and 'hand tank' ) :)


View attachment 14451



and its not just Egypt, next we could start on Sth America



View attachment 14450
OF COURSE! Silly Me.

I started watching one of those super informative Youtube clips last night. They showed the Naczca lines in Peru, I think. I learned that it was obviously built by aliens because those ancient people were incapable of drawing such long straight lines. I just love the internet, you learn so many untruths.

Oh, seriously, I read a few days ago that the Nazca images can be seem from nearby foot hills. Seems one doesn't don't need a spaceship or even a hot air balloon after all.


Have you seen that Mayan (?) tomb carving which people claim shows a man in at spaceship controls?, I've seen it in a book, taken in context. Couldn't quite see it


I'm pretty much convinced that people seeing space ships and evidence of aliens all over the place is mostly, if not all, caused by the human instinct to make sense of everything.A perfectly lovely cloud becomes a banal bunny rabbit and the planer Venus in the night sky, or perhaps ball lightning become alien crafts. We interpret unusual artifacts in terms of our own cultural perceptions.

When studying, a came across a paper which claimed some tribe could not see the images in photographs. I've lost the reference, so I'm afraid this is hearsay. However, I'm convinced that our physical perception of the world is at leat partly learned. I can't really back this claim up apart from personal anecdote, but that's not proof.
 
Oct 2013
5,877
Planet Nine, Oregon
#58
The depiction of Pakal is claimed by some AA believers to be operating a rocket or alien devi e:

I really hate that kind of BS. And Von Daniken, and the rest of 'em. fantasy ignorance and misinformation. And the Akhenagen was an alien and the a!ien mummy morons, pyramidiots... Airship, take me away!!!:rolleyes:
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#59
The depiction of Pakal is claimed by some AA believers to be operating a rocket or alien devi e:

I really hate that kind of BS. And Von Daniken, and the rest of 'em. fantasy ignorance and misinformation. And the Akhenagen was an alien and the a!ien mummy morons, pyramidiots... Airship, take me away!!!:rolleyes:

You would have just loved the 1970's (assuming you were not around then) . Erich Von Daniken started a stampede in what became its own genre. I'm pretty sure I I read about a dozen. After a while they started to quote each other, creating some kind of closed logic system.:rolleyes:

First came across mention of alien visitation in an issue of ' Science Fiction' (I think it was Astounding, I'm not sure) written in the 1950's. A friend showed me in about 1970. It was an article written by "A Russian Scientist" and was called "Spaceship Of Ezekiel" This guy had a look at the Book Of Ezekiel and its description of Ezekiel's experience. He interpreted the experience as an alien encounter, and gave a description of the space ship. There was also a book of the same name written by an ex NASA scientist, which came up with the same explantation, but in more detail

. It seems to me that some doctors and scientists are just as human as everyone else; in that they have the tendency to ascribe meaning to everything, but filter their world view through the lense of their discipline .I think that explains some some of truly idiotic statements made by some scientists when putting unusual interpretations on the mysterious----------Just like some of the dopier Youtubers, they seem to insist that science MUST have an explanation for everything, or else aliens/god did it

If you haven't read about him. I suggest reading about the infamous Ufologist fraud George Adamski, as a cautionary tale..


The Spaceships of Ezekiel (1974) is a book by Josef F. Blumrich (March 17, 1913 – February 10, 2002) about a spaceship that was supposedly observed by the prophet Ezekiel, written while the author was chief of NASA's systems layout branch of the program development office at the Marshall Space Flight Center.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] It was originally published in German by Econ Verlag GmbH under the title Da tat sich der Himmel auf (March 1973).[9]

The Spaceships of Ezekiel - Wikipedia


George Adamski (17 April 1891 – 23 April 1965) was a Polish American citizen who became widely known in ufology circles, and to some degree in popular culture, after he claimed to have photographed spaceships from other planets, met with friendly Nordic alien Space Brothers, and to have taken flights with them to the Moon and other planets.[2]

He was the first, and most famous, of the so-called contactees of the 1950s. Adamski called himself a "philosopher, teacher, student and saucer researcher", although most investigators concluded his claims were an elaborate hoax, and that Adamski himself was a con artist.[3]

Adamski authored three books describing his meetings with Nordic aliens and his travels with them aboard their spaceships: Flying Saucers Have Landed (co-written with Desmond Leslie) in 1953, Inside the Space Ships in 1955, and Flying Saucers Farewell in 1961. The first two books were both bestsellers; by 1960 they had sold a combined 200,000 copies.[4]

George Adamski - Wikipedia
 
Mar 2017
855
Colorado
#60
Discovery & History channel specials gave up hard fact when they found out their viewing audience would expand with a little nonsense ... and then a little more ... and then a lot more. YouTube made this kind of thing even more frequent with people trying to drive up their views to actually generate some revenue. Then, there are people that make money on the lecture circuit (your Honor, may I present the honorable Graham Hancock). It's ASTOUNDING ... UNBELIEVABLE ... AMAZING ... drawing many more clicks than dry archaeology.

I think there's also something else at work. Even in the historical sciences, I've observed a consistent trend to underestimate ancient people(s). They weren't like us. They weren't smart like us. They didn't have technology. They didn't thirst for knowledge ---- Breaking this overriding philosophy is like pulling teeth for scientists and regular people alike.

Anyone remember when Neanderthals were stumbling, animalistic troglodytes? Archaeologists rejected the artwork, musical instruments, and religious burials for decades ... until they couldn't fight it anymore. There's growing evidence of TRADE between Africa:SouthAmerica and SouthAmerica: Polynesia ... not just random items where they don't belong ... "trade". This a huge controversy: evidence vs scientists who say "it just can't be" ... because ... well ... because they say so.

My "Eureka" moment with history was when I realized that ancient people weren't "like" us ... they "were" us, in every way. Caesar was a Reagan-ish/Clinton-ish/Trump-ish character. Marc Antony the party wip. As functional then as they would be now.

They are many ancient artifacts that we can't explain in terms of construction. That doesn't mean because "we" don't understand it, "they" couldn't have done it. I'm very tired of "experts" short-changing ancient people who were just as smart as us.

The Antikytheran mechanism: who built that, aliens? Simple astrolabes weren't in wide use until the Islamic Empire, and it's way more complicated ... and almost 1000 yrs too early. Oh wait. Around 350 BCE, Archytas of Tarentum built a mechanical flying bird. 250 BCE, Philo of Byzantium built small mechanical devices for parlor tricks and a life-size mechanical robot that poured wine & mixed it with water (accepted practice) -- see Philo's Pneumatica. Wealthy Egyptians are "said" to have had small, simple, humanlike automatons in their homes (still looking for a reference). Heron of Alexandria also wrote a Pneumatica, full of mechanical singing birds, full puppet theater performances, coin operated machines, self-playing organs, and other devices. The Antikytheran mechanism didn't pop out of nowhere, it had an evolution ... it's just the only one we found.

Have you seen this bead?

"Due to the seal's small size and veining on the stone, many of the miniature details are only clearly visible via photomicroscopy. "

It's an inch wide ... smaller than the displayed image. It's really complicated (guy with sword is driving it into guy behind shield with spear, while stepping on a dead guy), as well as beautifully carved in great detail .. warring sides are identifiable by their costumes (dead guy is wearing plaid kilt). Current speculation is that it could not have been carved without use of a magnifying lense, but there is no evidence of any such technology at that time. "No evidence" It's dated to 1500 BCE from the warrior it was found with. About 1000 yrs too early for this style of art. I have no doubt a master HUMAN carver did this. A very, very smart and talented guy ... equal to the Greeks 1000 yrs later, equal to the Renaissance masters, equal (at least) to the very best we have today.

Just because WE can't figure out how those stones at Puma Punku were carved, doesn't mean the original HUMAN architect wasn't smart enough to do it. Use Occam's Razor ... the simplest explanation: smart human. I'll bet there have been 10,000's of Leonardo da Vinci's in humanity's span ... including guys in caves.

In the middle of the Kalahari desert (those people that talk in clicks), there might be a genius ... hunting with a spear and stealing ostrich eggs ... and helping his people with clever innovations. He just doesn't have the opportunity to work on CRISPR or ever work on the atom smasher in Cern. Humans haven't made evolutionary jumps in a mere 5000 yrs. Ancient people were us.

Can you flint knap a spear point? Yeah, me neither. I'm not smart enough.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
 
Last edited:
Likes: Murffy