Has anyone here read Ambedkar's book "Pakistan, or, The Partition of India"?

Jun 2017
537
usa
As far as the OP is concerned... book is very insightful. Dr Ambedkar is one of the most respected leaders of India. He was the person who framed the Indian constitution.

Dr Ambedkar was a staunch critic of the Hindus and had converted to Buddhism but what was interesting in this book is his opinion about the Muslims of British India and his prediction regarding the state of affairs.
A lot of what he predicts in the book stands true today.
I hope the mods don't take this post as baiting, disparaging or bickering. If that is the case then the original post itself is a bait as the book is on Hindu Muslim politics at the time of partition
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,710
SoCal
As far as the OP is concerned... book is very insightful. Dr Ambedkar is one of the most respected leaders of India. He was the person who framed the Indian constitution.

Dr Ambedkar was a staunch critic of the Hindus and had converted to Buddhism but what was interesting in this book is his opinion about the Muslims of British India and his prediction regarding the state of affairs.
A lot of what he predicts in the book stands true today.
I hope the mods don't take this post as baiting, disparaging or bickering. If that is the case then the original post itself is a bait as the book is on Hindu Muslim politics at the time of partition
I really don't think that you're doing any baiting here. Also, Yes, I do think that Ambedkar was spot-on in regards to what he wrote. He talked about Czechoslovakia and the Ottoman Empire and about having large minorities didn't exactly work out well for them.
 
Aug 2014
1,273
pakistan
Did you ever consider the possibility that Khan's assassin was a support of having Afghanistan annex the Pashtun-majority areas of Pakistan?
Afghanistanis celebrate Babrak Zadran (the assassin) as a national hero and refers to him as "atal" (meaning hero in Pashto) and "Ghazi". They do so because he assassinated Prime Minister of Pakistanis, who they consider their mortal enemies.

But there are some facts to consider. When Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated, the Afghanistan government of that time issued a statement that Babrak was already stripped of Afghan citizenship for his anti-national activities and he had taken refuge in British India where he was receiving monthly allowance from British-Indian government. This was confirmed by Pakistani government, and it was also revealed that he continued receiving that monthly allowance from government of Pakistan. It is also a fact that Babrk Zadran was sitting in the front row at the position where CID Police officers were sitting, when he shot the Prime Minister. [Source]
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,739
New Delhi, India
It seems a classic case of political assasination like that of JF Kennedy. The assassin is killed by government personnel and the story is dumped. Probably Babrak Zadran was fooled into it. Perhaps Army (General Ayub) had its hand in it.
 
Aug 2019
46
Mars
It is funny to watch peoples fight and insult over different dishes, or hate a dish because it is of the 'enemy'. Then again everything is possible in the subcontinent. A feature of the Indian caste system is rules of commensality where a caste can not accept food made by castes below - too polluting. This had been used to put down people, based on what people eat.
Poster Kandal you can't have it both ways. In one thread you complain about impolite and irrational behaviour of the Asian posters and in another thread you want Asian posters to take the 'bait'.

Caste system is a big problem in the subcontinent and if you genuinely want to discuss it then there is a separate thread in the forum where you can find like-minded people who can help you to know more about the complexity, historic development, extent, limitations, shortcoming and strengths of this system.
There are only two general ways in which vast culinary tradition of the subcontinent can be divided :
1. Royal(who may belong to variety of 'jatis' and religions) and commoners' food
2. Vegetarian and non-vegetarian food

If your posts(both here and in previous threads) are only motivated by your personal frustration or past bad experiences with Indian people then It would be best for you to just let it go and be a valuable contributor of this forum.
 
Aug 2019
271
United States
Afghanistanis celebrate Babrak Zadran (the assassin) as a national hero and refers to him as "atal" (meaning hero in Pashto) and "Ghazi". They do so because he assassinated Prime Minister of Pakistanis, who they consider their mortal enemies.

But there are some facts to consider. When Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated, the Afghanistan government of that time issued a statement that Babrak was already stripped of Afghan citizenship for his anti-national activities and he had taken refuge in British India where he was receiving monthly allowance from British-Indian government. This was confirmed by Pakistani government, and it was also revealed that he continued receiving that monthly allowance from government of Pakistan. It is also a fact that Babrk Zadran was sitting in the front row at the position where CID Police officers were sitting, when he shot the Prime Minister. [Source]
Sounds like the case of a fifth columnist, somebody that took advantage of the host country's generosity.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,739
New Delhi, India
Poster Kandal you can't have it both ways. In one thread you complain about impolite and irrational behaviour of the Asian posters and in another thread you want Asian posters to take the 'bait'.
Kandal knows all that very succinctly. His problem is different. He tries to be an evangelist. So, he has to denigrate Hinduism in every way possible.
A feature of the Indian caste system is rules of commensality where a caste can not accept food made by castes below - too polluting. This had been used to put down people, based on what people eat.
I do not see anything wrong with that. Those were times before pasteurization and antibiotics. Gastro-entiric diseases were common in India and deadly. So, people ate food prepared only by the family or by people whom they trusted to be clean and concerned about cleanliness. The same goes for the practice of 'sutak' (uncleanliness) for the family where a death had taken place. Who knew what was the cause of death? If a disease, then whether it was infectious or not? So people did not take food with the family for 12 days or so. It was a sort of quarantine. Don't we sometimes have problems with food from restaurants?
 
Last edited:
Oct 2015
1,138
India
Afghanistanis celebrate Babrak Zadran (the assassin) as a national hero and refers to him as "atal" (meaning hero in Pashto) and "Ghazi". They do so because he assassinated Prime Minister of Pakistanis, who they consider their mortal enemies.

But there are some facts to consider. When Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated, the Afghanistan government of that time issued a statement that Babrak was already stripped of Afghan citizenship for his anti-national activities and he had taken refuge in British India where he was receiving monthly allowance from British-Indian government. This was confirmed by Pakistani government, and it was also revealed that he continued receiving that monthly allowance from government of Pakistan. It is also a fact that Babrk Zadran was sitting in the front row at the position where CID Police officers were sitting, when he shot the Prime Minister. [Source]
New details - Assassin had defected from Afghanistan too British, and [ii] had been getting an allowance of Rs 450.00 per month from British Colonial Govt and after 1947 from Pakistan Govt. Rs 450 per month in 1947 was a handsome amount because 25 years later, my father, who was a civil engineer with Govt was getting Rs 60.00 which was enough to run a family and spare some.

In all likelihood, the assassin was not an ordinary person or terrorist, but some sort of a tribal chief who occupied a chair in front rows at the meeting. Instead of being arrested he was shot dead.

All this suggests that the assassination was an inside job by someone in Pakistan's political hierarchy and not incited by Afghan Govt.
 
Aug 2019
46
Mars
Nobody in either city even knows what a dosa is. It's nonexistent in Pakistan.
Then we have to work hard to export them and you've to work hard for lifting trade ban! :zany:

so a gun wielding Sardarji eating dosa should not be a surprise. Especially in a city like Chandigarh.
I've lived in Chandigarh for a few years and Dosas are quiet popular there. You can have them in regular as well as high-end places. But my favourite Chandigarh Dosa experience was with two Tamil brothers who used to run a sort of makeshift restaurant. Their 'lehsun chutney' was nothing short of divine.
 
Aug 2019
46
Mars
and none of the Mughalai invader cuisine can be called Indian anymore

it did indeed developed in the Muslim belt of north india during Turkic/Islamic rule it had nothing to with mostly vegetarian native gangetic dishes.

Biryani and Nihari both have origins from outside the subcontinent and made its way to the region

I'm so sorry we don't use coconut oil or eat dosas in Pakistan, nor do we care.
I think I can provide more clarification on some points in this post.

South Indian cuisine also makes heavy use of gingelly oil and ghee. I think historically coconut oil was only preferred in coastal regions like Malabar.

Nihari and Biryani are indeed foreign names but both of these dishes are absent in their 'alleged' original land. All of ingredients required to prepare Nihari and Biryani are native to sub-continent not central Asia. Better explanation can be that these recipies were enrichened under Mughal patronage but these were inspired from precursor Indian recipies.
Intrestingly anecdote of Noorjehan developing recipie of Biryani to save soldiers from malnutrition is similiar to example of rice-meat dish Oon Souru being prepared for the soldiers in Sangam era literature.

Disappointingly apart from Pancha-nada Mahabharata also mentions a rice-meat dish and many other food items. Both Pandavas as well as lord Rama were voracious meat eaters and wine lovers.;)

Among natives of subcontinent only Brahmins and Vaishyas were staunch vegetarians. Even Gautama Buddha and Bhikshus of Sanghas used to consume meat. Kshatriyas, Shudras and tribals used to eat almost everything except beef. On the contrary Akbar and Jehangir are believed to have preference for vegetarian food and Aurangzeb had turned into complete vegetarian in his later life.

In ancient Sanskrit and Pali canon we find many examples of Pulao-Biryani(there was not much distinction between these two in the starting) type dishes. Though cooking methods are not mentioned but ingredients like rice, milk, pepper, ghee, cumin, bay leaves, duck, fish, vension etc used to go into the cooking pot.

Pioneer of ancient medical science like Sushruta and Charaka even recommend different types of meats for curing different ailments. You can find an Ayurvedic remedy similiar(but less sophisticated) to Nihari which is prepared by slowly cooking meat and bone marrow with selected spices and ghee.

Unfortunately no ancient cooking book survives so it's hard to logically explain the effects of central Asia on Mughlai or Indian cuisine.

Oldest surviving Indian work which has few dedicated chapters for cooking is Manasollas attributed to Chalukya king Someshwara. It has many intresting recipies which unfortunately get overshadowed by king's favourite 'fried-skewered rats'.
The book has recipies for Urad daal 'Jalebis', pig roast, slow cooked Daal flavoured with asafoetida, rice(cooked with ghee, milk and saffron), ancestors of Bengali Roshogulla-Barfi-Gulab Jamun, offal curry, fried or roasted meatballs(similiar to koftas), meat stuffed birds etc.

The region in which Mughal dominated was historically most prosperous and cultured region of India. We don't know what natives used to eat and we will never know this part of history but the Mughlai cusinie with all of it's exquisite techniques and ingredients was developed in India by the Indian cooks so I don't know to which country/planet we should accredit it to except India.

In case there is no consensus about the place I suggest planet Mars. I'll brag that my ancestors developed Mughlai cuisine! :hug: