Has christian/Byzantine church art been influenced by Buddhist/Indian art?

Feb 2019
772
Pennsylvania, US
#41
All I see in this thread is Indian nationalism rearing its head and insisting that everyone copied India as always, and any of the scholars that disprove that (i.e. most of them) are instantly labelled as "Eurocentric" and dismissed. I've yet to see - reading through this entire thread - any proof as demonstrated by scholars of a tangible connection between Byzantine art and Indian art, and without scholarly evidence, history is nothing but opinions, and opinions are worthless when asserting a factual or non-factual claim. It's clear that the person that posted this went in with a strong agenda on the topic and wanted to make facts fit around that, rather than vice versa.
I'm starting to think you nailed it, WhatAnArtist.
 
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#42
I think these last three photos were within a time range when Alexander the great had conquered parts of Central Asia
now this is the issue

first of all the pre mauryan art does suggest a pre alexandrian time period, since alexander invaded in 327 or so BC, the pre mauryan art would easily be before chandragupta maurya made mauryan empire meaning before 322 BC, to expect that suddenly greeks came and influenced indian art is irrational. There are zero greek arts attested in central asia in pre ashokan period, even after that greek arts are hardly attested in the third BC, ai khanoum has been sited as an influence into indian arts, but even ai khanoum arts have later beginning then the mauryan arts.

secondly i know where the mane is coming from and its not greek to begin with, here for instance is the evidence of it

assyrian lion, same mane.

1554231763802.png



here in pre mauryan sculpture

1554231792627.png

keep focus on the lion's eyes

1554231845326.png

same rendition of the eyes.

manes have been rendered in the same mesopotamian style since indus bronze age

1554231908404.png

indus amulet, notice the artistic engraving of conical mane

1554231948468.png

masarh lion has been dated by some art historians as pre mauryan fifth BC

1554232170847.png

this artistic element of curve hair has been present even in the indus valley civilization

1554232490821.png

shortugai star

so greek art and indian art only share the same root and nothing else.

regards
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
#43
... Dr David stronach ''proves'' that charbagh design was present in achaemenid garden designs, an ameteur like me can debunk his PhD arguments, for instance achaemenid charbagh has no square area, only rectangular, and charbagh was about division of a square area into four smaller and equal squares, in persian they call it chartaq for the square area and its architecture, a basic research from iranica encyclopedia would reveal that chartaq designs were not familiar to the achaemenids and only came to persia via rome during parthian era, stronach uses lame arguments just to make confirmation bias that charbagh garden is a persian design.

regards
I beg to differ, based on the source You quoted (Encyclopaedia Iranica), and I quote:

"ČAHĀRBĀḠ, lit. “four gardens,” a rectangular garden divided by paths or waterways into four symmetrical sections.
[...]
Recent excavations at both Pasargadae and Susa suggest that the history of the čahārbāḡ begins in the Achaemenid period."
 
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#44
I beg to differ, based on the source You quoted (Encyclopaedia Iranica), and I quote:

"ČAHĀRBĀḠ, lit. “four gardens,” a rectangular garden divided by paths or waterways into four symmetrical sections.
[...]
Recent excavations at both Pasargadae and Susa suggest that the history of the čahārbāḡ begins in the Achaemenid period."
no,

charbagh comes from chartaq, a garden which is using chartaq designs and chartaq relies not on rectangles but on squares. The persian garden have not used that square division and yet when you see mughal gardens, most of their garden plans are based on squares.

1554233779253.png

even european gardens using charbag are using square division which means they are inspired by mughal indian designs, not persian rectangular designs

1554233687639.png

The renaissance style gardens at Chateau Villandry.


and this is rectangular persian garden

1554233872737.png

Naqsh-e Jahan Square

regards
 
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#46
What would be the logic to believe more in an influence from thousand of miles (India in this case) when it already existed in the region?

Knossos, c. 1600 B.C.E:

it is possible that persians showed nude breasts as well but rarely and was not characteristically indian, and probably persian relief was inspired from greeks, not indians.

regards
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
#47
...
charbagh comes from chartaq, a garden which is using chartaq designs and chartaq relies not on rectangles but on squares. ...
Sorry, IDK what charbagh, chartaq is.

What I know is that the source You quoted talks about "čahārbāḡ" in the Achaemenid period and also talks about rectangular design.

Without knowing anything, I'd say that square is simply a particular form of rectangle. Also, without knowing anything, both words' root come from "four", not from "square" or something else.

In short, the debunking of the Mr. PhD You talked isn't a debunk, not based on Iranica. Actually, Iranica quotes as source Mr Scottish You disliked ;)
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
#48
it is possible that persians showed nude breasts as well but rarely and was not characteristically indian, and probably persian relief was inspired from greeks, not indians.

regards
That statue is Minoan, not Persian, nor Indian.

As Crete is a lot closer to Greece than Persia or India, I still believe it's a bit illogic to think to influences from thousands of miles instead of what was "around the corner".
 
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#49
Sorry, IDK what charbagh, chartaq is.

What I know is that the source You quoted talks about "čahārbāḡ" in the Achaemenid period and also talks about rectangular design.

Without knowing anything, I'd say that square is simply a particular form of rectangle. Also, without knowing anything, both words' root come from "four", not from "square" or something else.

In short, the debunking of the Mr. PhD You talked isn't a debunk, not based on Iranica. Actually, Iranica quotes as source Mr Scottish You disliked ;)
please read this and then come back

ČAHĀRṬĀQ – Encyclopaedia Iranica

how many rectangles and squares are mentioned in this article?

regards