Has not history shown that the doves were right about the Vietnam War?

Mar 2012
18,030
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
Clearly the United States lost the Vietnam War. The Viet Cong and the NVA ran the U.S. Military out of South Vietnam. The Communists took control of Vietnam.

The United States lost the Vietnam War and won the Cold War.
This post of Chlodio is the correct one.
The US forces won every battle but the US gave up the war through political exhaustion.
The truth is Vietnam War was lost in the streets of the U.S. The American public just hate that war. So the U.S. needed to invent weapons that can kill people without deploying large army hence the drones.

Anyway, going back to the topic, the anti Vietnam war opinion was actually supportive of communism. So, Cambodia and Laos became communist countries and insurgencies in neighboring countries existed like in Malaysia and the Philippines.

I don't see it as military loss of the Americans but more of victory of communist propaganda.
 
Mar 2012
18,030
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
Along with Vietnam, there were communist insurgencies in Thailand, Malaya, Indonesia, The Philippines and Burma. This made the domino theory all too plausible to observers at the time.
Right, and under this circumstance, my hate against Marcos would wane every time I remember that he was responsible for the crack down of the communist.
 

Pendennis

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,386
Kirkcaldy, Scotland
I generally like Ike Eisenhower as US PrezziEs go. But let's not forget that it was Ike and his foreign secretary Dulles who created the post 1956 Vietnam War that caused LBJ and many American parents who lost sons etc so much grief between 1965-73.
In 1954 British Conservatve Prime Minster Anthony Eden and French Prime Minster Pierre Mendes France brokered the 1954 Geneva peace deal whereby the Viet Minh/HO Chi Minh were guaranteed nationwide north and south democratic election in July 1956 .
When Dulles was told that HO and the Viet Minh would have romped home to power in these democratic elections Dulles and the US State dept encouraged South Vietnam's BAO Dai to unilaterally renege on the 1954 Geneva agreement. T +hus paving the way for the war that followed between 1965-72 involving US troops. Thus all those who died from the 50.000 + US Soldiers to the hundreds of thousands of civilians were victims of the Eisenhower Adminsrtation's act of rampant diplomatic bad faith.
Had the 1954 Geneva aggreement been implemented in July 1956-no war ;no black memorial wall to the U.S. fallen ; no My Lai massacre;no John McCain locked up in the Hanoi Hilton.No Agent Orange pollution; no pics of little Vietnamese girls running along a road scalded by naplam(although the little girl that I have in mind now lives-I believe-in New York City);no Oliver Stone guilt movies(Platoon) about 'NAM.
 
Apr 2016
900
Netherlands
I generally like Ike Eisenhower as US PrezziEs go. But let's not forget that it was Ike and his foreign secretary Dulles who created the post 1956 Vietnam War that caused LBJ and many American parents who lost sons etc so much grief between 1965-73.
In 1954 British Conservatve Prime Minster Anthony Eden and French Prime Minster Pierre Mendes France brokered the 1954 Geneva peace deal whereby the Viet Minh/HO Chi Minh were guaranteed nationwide north and south democratic election in July 1956 .
When Dulles was told that HO and the Viet Minh would have romped home to power in these democratic elections Dulles and the US State dept encouraged South Vietnam's BAO Dai to unilaterally renege on the 1954 Geneva agreement. T +hus paving the way for the war that followed between 1965-72 involving US troops. Thus all those who died from the 50.000 + US Soldiers to the hundreds of thousands of civilians were victims of the Eisenhower Adminsrtation's act of rampant diplomatic bad faith.
Had the 1954 Geneva aggreement been implemented in July 1956-no war ;no black memorial wall to the U.S. fallen ; no My Lai massacre;no John McCain locked up in the Hanoi Hilton.No Agent Orange pollution; no pics of little Vietnamese girls running along a road scalded by naplam(although the little girl that I have in mind now lives-I believe-in New York City);no Oliver Stone guilt movies(Platoon) about 'NAM.
And the Red Khmer still gets to genocide the Cambodian people, this time probably even longer and more thorough.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,813
USA
If America's failure in Vietnam did not result in the further spread of Communism, doesn't it follow from that that the doves were right and the hawks were wrong?
There was one communist nation in SE Asia in 1960, North Vietnam. In 1980 it had spread to a combined Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and there were major insurgencies that threatened the others.

How exactly were the doves right? Doesn't this actually prove them wrong?

The only way they would have been proven correct is if no other nation fell to the communist, and if communist insurgencies didn't continue to attempt to overthrow the rest of SE Asia, and that isn't what happened. Which is why they were wrong.
 

PragmaticStatistic

Ad Honorem
Mar 2011
2,060
Florida
The truth is Vietnam War was lost in the streets of the U.S. The American public just hate that war. So the U.S. needed to invent weapons that can kill people without deploying large army hence the drones.
Hence the rise of the privatization of the military, the lack of a draft, and lack of declarations of war. All of which make it easier to go to war and stupidly fight several wars at the same time.

And as Sun Tzu's The Art of War stated:

6. There is no instance of a country having benefitted from prolonged warfare.

13,14. With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be
dissipated; while Government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantlets, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.
Now consider how going to war with North Korea over this new missile crisis and possibly its allies China and Russia will drain the economy if we remain in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our enemies know they can ban together to stretch us to our limits.
 
Apr 2016
900
Netherlands
Hence the rise of the privatization of the military, the lack of a draft, and lack of declarations of war. All of which make it easier to go to war and stupidly fight several wars at the same time.

And as Sun Tzu's The Art of War stated:

6. There is no instance of a country having benefitted from prolonged warfare.

Now consider how going to war with North Korea over this new missile crisis and possibly its allies China and Russia will drain the economy if we remain in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our enemies know they can ban together to stretch us to our limits.
I would say the Dutch Repulic benefited immensely from their 80 year struggle for independence though. With the later stages of the war being the start of the Dutch Golden Age.
 

PragmaticStatistic

Ad Honorem
Mar 2011
2,060
Florida
I would say the Dutch Repulic benefited immensely from their 80 year struggle for independence though. With the later stages of the war being the start of the Dutch Golden Age.
Only if we accept that their technological revolution in shipbuilding and the migration of the Protestant skilled craftsmen and rich merchants from Habsburg under the terms of the surrender of Antwerp that helped make them a world economic power was an after affect of a series of wars.
 
Apr 2016
900
Netherlands
Only if we accept that their technological revolution in shipbuilding and the migration of the Protestant skilled craftsmen and rich merchants from Habsburg under the terms of the surrender of Antwerp that helped make them a world economic power was an after affect of a series of wars.
How were the Dutch supposed to become the worlds leading maritime power if they hadn't fought for their independence in the first place?
 
Mar 2012
18,030
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
Hence the rise of the privatization of the military, the lack of a draft, and lack of declarations of war. All of which make it easier to go to war and stupidly fight several wars at the same time.

And as Sun Tzu's The Art of War stated:

Now consider how going to war with North Korea over this new missile crisis and possibly its allies China and Russia will drain the economy if we remain in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our enemies know they can ban together to stretch us to our limits.
War is necessary part of imposition of will by any powerful nation so the US shall always act aa hawk to showcase the desires of the doves. It shall always use force against anyones who shall block its way.

The American presence in the Middle East is irreversible of whoever administers its government.

In the Pacific rim however, it shall act only on extreme situations because the relevance of it is not like in the Middle East where petrodollar shall be hardly affected.