Hatshepsut was subsaharian?

Jun 2010
3,326
Colorado Springs (PA at heart)
#3
Not to be a little pedantic, but since Egypt isn't north of the Sahara, Egyptians and Hatsheput aren't sub-Saharan.
I haven't watched the documentary so I don't know what they are suggesting but couldn't there have sometimes been intermixing between Nubian (and/or other Sub-Saharans) and Egyptian royal families?
 
Dec 2015
2,512
USA
#4
I haven't watched the documentary so I don't know what they are suggesting but couldn't there have sometimes been intermixing between Nubian (and/or other Sub-Saharans) and Egyptian royal families?
Nubia was more or less Egypt's closest relation throughout most of its history. It wouldn't be a surprise that the royal families and nobility of both intermarried numerous times to seal alliances and treaties. There's also a possible model that postulates that the Egyptians and Nubians might just be two desperate branches of the same neolithic cultures that inhabited the Nile, but I can't confirm that or not.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,671
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#5
Nubia was more or less Egypt's closest relation throughout most of its history. It wouldn't be a surprise that the royal families and nobility of both intermarried numerous times to seal alliances and treaties. There's also a possible model that postulates that the Egyptians and Nubians might just be two desperate branches of the same neolithic cultures that inhabited the Nile, but I can't confirm that or not.
There were members of the Court who had their roots in the South [Upper Egypt], we can mention Pharaoh Ay who was born at Akhmin. So South the mixtures of populations left room for Subsaharian origin to come out.

In this picture, Ay is the guy on the right [remember that for Ancient Egyptians the color of the skin had a symbolic value and followed a canon in representations, men were darker and usually women lighter ...]



Now, there are more possibilities that "external" figures [like Ay] had origins different from the ones of the Royal House [Ancient Egyptians considered sacred the Royal Blood so they were selective about marriages, not rarely a mother got married with a son, a sister with a brother, a father with a daughter ...].

An other external figure which could have subsaharian origins is Tuya [she was born at Akhmin in Upper Egypt, as well. Other spelling: Tiye - Great Spouse of Amenhotep III].

This reproduction of her head is very realistic: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/%C3%84gyptisches_Museum_Berlin_027.jpg

About Hatshepsut ... we have to follow her lineage to discover something. She was daughter of Thutmose I and Ahmose.

We don't know who was the father of Thutmose I; we've got a depiction of his mother [Senseneb], but it's really canonical [so not so useful: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Queen_Senseneb.png].

About the mother, Ahmose, we don't know who the parents were, there is the hypothesis that they were members of the Royal dynasty as well.

So, I would not be so certain about Hatshepsut, I cannot exclude it, but we have to go backwards of not a few generations and with a high level of uncertainty.
 
Jun 2012
7,039
Malaysia
#7
About Hatshepsut ... we have to follow her lineage to discover something. She was daughter of Thutmose I and Ahmose.

We don't know who was the father of Thutmose I; we've got a depiction of his mother [Senseneb], but it's really canonical [so not so useful: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Queen_Senseneb.png].

About the mother, Ahmose, we don't know who the parents were, there is the hypothesis that they were members of the Royal dynasty as well.

So, I would not be so certain about Hatshepsut, I cannot exclude it, but we have to go backwards of not a few generations and with a high level of uncertainty.
Interesting. Well, if we go back just like sixty years or so from Hatshepsut, we reach the time of Ahhotep, daughter of Queen Tetisheri (Teti the Small) & Senakhtenre Ahmose. This Ahhotep is believed to hv been sister as well as queen consort of Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao II.

Ahhotep was probably the mother of Pharaoh Ahmose I, as well as his brother Kamose, who possibly died in battle against their Hyksos conquerors & occupiers, possibly also after he himself had been anointed Pharaoh.

They launched their war of liberation against their Hyksos conquerors from Upper Egypt, suggesting that they were originally from there, and therefore retreated there also in the wake of the Hyksos conquest of Lower Egypt.

Their exploits form the core of the hist fict novel War of The crowns by Christian Jacq.
 
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Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,191
Crows nest
#8
Deleted since I saw in a post under this a reference to "white racists".
Yet another contentious thread, and so soon after the last one was closed and we have the same old same old......
 
Last edited:
Mar 2012
327
#10
This is true, many other Royal families held from the south of Egypt as well. You had the 12th Dynasty, Senusret, who claimed origins from a Nubian woman of the Uahka family who were Nubian Royals who built tombs in the South of Egypt.

"Ancestry of Senusert. In the tomb of prince Uah-ka B at Qau, in an inner chamber, is painted a scene of the son of Uah-ka, named Senusert; there is no cartouche. As the Uah-ka family were of about the 4th or 5th dynasty (the name being unknown either in the 11th of the 12th dynasty), this implies that the 12th dynasty Senusert family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. The separate identification of these sphinxes follows further on. The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho. Waka is the god of the Gallas." (Petrie, W.M.F., The Making of Egypt, 1939, p. 126)

Funny enough it was this very dynasty that was so Millitant against the Nubian Kushites that they enacted the edicts against them from entering Egyptian soil, Ironically the Nordic-centrist website "March of the Titans" would use these edicts to prove that the 12th Dynasty who were of Southern and self proclaimed Nubian origin(they also portrayed themselves as such) were infact White Racists enacting apartied...lol oh the Irony.

There were members of the Court who had their roots in the South [Upper Egypt], we can mention Pharaoh Ay who was born at Akhmin. So South the mixtures of populations left room for Subsaharian origin to come out.

In this picture, Ay is the guy on the right [remember that for Ancient Egyptians the color of the skin had a symbolic value and followed a canon in representations, men were darker and usually women lighter ...]



Now, there are more possibilities that "external" figures [like Ay] had origins different from the ones of the Royal House [Ancient Egyptians considered sacred the Royal Blood so they were selective about marriages, not rarely a mother got married with a son, a sister with a brother, a father with a daughter ...].

An other external figure which could have subsaharian origins is Tuya [she was born at Akhmin in Upper Egypt, as well. Other spelling: Tiye - Great Spouse of Amenhotep III].

This reproduction of her head is very realistic: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Ägyptisches_Museum_Berlin_027.jpg

About Hatshepsut ... we have to follow her lineage to discover something. She was daughter of Thutmose I and Ahmose.

We don't know who was the father of Thutmose I; we've got a depiction of his mother [Senseneb], but it's really canonical [so not so useful: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Queen_Senseneb.png].

About the mother, Ahmose, we don't know who the parents were, there is the hypothesis that they were members of the Royal dynasty as well.

So, I would not be so certain about Hatshepsut, I cannot exclude it, but we have to go backwards of not a few generations and with a high level of uncertainty.
 

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