heavy armored personnel carriers.

Jul 2016
7,781
USA
#31
No, figure out what protection they need.

If they're accompanying tanks, they need the protection of a tank.

I'd say 4 such heavy APCs per platoon...equals 14 per company (with 2 at company HQ level).
They're not just accompanying tanks. Infantry in standard infantry units need APCs, their primary threat even in a meat grinder modern industrial war isn't an enemy tank unit, its enemy IFV, which means the APC needs to be able to kill that enemy IFV, which means it also needs to be an IFV.

A heavy APC with no cannon or ATGM missile capability would be a sitting duck in any battlefield where the enemy even only had 1970s level old Soviet equipment. The enemy IFV (BMP, BTR) can kill it, the dismounts (with RPGs) can kill it, enemy tanks (with MBT tank rounds) can kill it, while it can kill almost nothing. Protection is more than taking a hit, its having the ability to prevent getting hit by killing the enemy threat. Without that means, its purely a battlefield taxi, dropping off infantry to fend for themselves while it gets the hell out of there, while enemy infantry will be supported by their own IFV.

Any vehicle is a tool. What point does it serve? Whatever you decide, it'll be a trade off. But what is important? What is absolutely essential for completing the mission? What is a luxury?
 
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Jan 2013
1,207
Anywhere
#32
It is best that every heavy apc should have an armored machine gun turret and anti armor defenses. Just like in WWII,Korea and Vietnam. Having an unarmed transporting vehicle is a death wish to the personnel. Thats why you see military trucks, APCs, IFVs, Mraps and armored cars have weapons placed on them.

Now if its law enforcement that has to do in dealing with criminals, then yes all APCs should be unarmed in a civilian environment like urban and suburban communities or in cities where riot police and swat teams operate. But in times of war or in peacekeeping missions all APCs are required to be armed.
 
Jan 2013
1,207
Anywhere
#34
can anyone tell me what is the best APC to be used in the jungle? I live in the tropical regions in SouthEast Asia so it's pretty heavy in the jungle department.
A Bronco APC, pindad anoa, with a FNSS/PT Pindad Kaplan Tiger medium tank and peacekeeper prv mrap. Since a jungle environment (both sub tropical and tropical) will better suited for a amphibious tracked armored vehicle and a medium tank. Cause large APCs and MBTs are better suited in desert, grassland and maybe taigas and Carboniferous forests and possibly wet savannahs in brazil. But jungles is kind of a question mark to me.

So the vehicles you see could be good or better to use in Jungles, Swamps, wetlands places like Vietnam, Laos, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and Thailand and even possible in mountainous regions like in India, Bhutan, and Nepal.
 

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Likes: Vanillalover1

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,405
Sydney
#35
" If they're accompanying tanks, they need the protection of a tank. "
wrong thinking
tanks fight as they are , infantry do not fight from their vehicle , they fight outside
the idea of using tank chassis for infantry carriers is a massive waste of money , producing gas guzzling unsuitable vehicle

the basis of the specification is to carry a squad ,8 to ten, plus various equipment and supply
it must be as roomy as possible , have armor proof against heavy machine gun , good mobility and range
being able to withstand a tank round full on is not needed
 
Jul 2016
7,781
USA
#36
" If they're accompanying tanks, they need the protection of a tank. "
wrong thinking
tanks fight as they are , infantry do not fight from their vehicle , they fight outside
the idea of using tank chassis for infantry carriers is a massive waste of money , producing gas guzzling unsuitable vehicle

the basis of the specification is to carry a squad ,8 to ten, plus various equipment and supply
it must be as roomy as possible , have armor proof against heavy machine gun , good mobility and range
being able to withstand a tank round full on is not needed
You're describing an APC, which is essentially a battlefield taxi. To replace a cargo truck for carrying infantry, being fully enclosed, protected against small arms and light HE fragmentation, be highly mobile through the use of tracks not wheels. But the creation of the Infantry Fighting Vehicles prove that infantry can and often does fight from vehicles.

Germans did it a lot in WW2 from their halftracks. They continued the concept with the first IFV in the 50s, the Soviets took off with it in the 60s, and it blew up from there. The creation of the IFV concept definitely proved that infantry using IFV have the choice to either fight from their vehicle, using the turret cannon, ATGM, coax, rifle ports, open hatches, etc., or they can dismount to tackle objectives that either the vehicles can't reach, or dismounts are more optimal for the mission.
 
Likes: sparky
Jul 2016
7,781
USA
#37
can anyone tell me what is the best APC to be used in the jungle? I live in the tropical regions in SouthEast Asia so it's pretty heavy in the jungle department.
No APC or IFV is going to perform well in a full on jungle. Too much vegetation, too many trees, ground is too soft, too wet, no nearby roads. While tracked armored vehicles can advance across tougher terrain, fuel trucks, supply trucks, etc, are wheeled and need decent roads.

The best vehicle for a jungle is a helicopter. You can move troops around easily. Getting above the treeline allows better command and control. Troop carrying helicopters can duel role as light attack helicopters using rockets and machine guns. Heavy supply loads for sustainment, even artillery pieces or some not-too-heavy vehicles can be sling loaded into LZs. Real mules are good too, as long as they're trained and maintained well, they historically perform rather well as long as they have a trail to cut. Human feet, they're very efficient in the jungle.
 
Jan 2013
1,207
Anywhere
#38
No APC or IFV is going to perform well in a full on jungle. Too much vegetation, too many trees, ground is too soft, too wet, no nearby roads. While tracked armored vehicles can advance across tougher terrain, fuel trucks, supply trucks, etc, are wheeled and need decent roads.

The best vehicle for a jungle is a helicopter. You can move troops around easily. Getting above the treeline allows better command and control. Troop carrying helicopters can duel role as light attack helicopters using rockets and machine guns. Heavy supply loads for sustainment, even artillery pieces or some not-too-heavy vehicles can be sling loaded into LZs. Real mules are good too, as long as they're trained and maintained well, they historically perform rather well as long as they have a trail to cut. Human feet, they're very efficient in the jungle.

Do you think a Bronco APC could do that just out of curiosity. I mean I was hesitant in replying about that since I wasn't sure if modern armored vehicles could perform well in tropical and subtropical jungles or swamps. So I thought a Bronco APC probably...probably could pretty perform well in those areas. But I do agree helicopters and vtols could work a lot better. Now of course it depends on the country of origin since large vehicles like the aav7a1 would be bad and same with BTR-80's in wet and muddy jungles.
 
Jan 2019
2
Philippines
#39
A Bronco APC, pindad anoa, with a FNSS/PT Pindad Kaplan Tiger medium tank and peacekeeper prv mrap. Since a jungle environment (both sub tropical and tropical) will better suited for a amphibious tracked armored vehicle and a medium tank. Cause large APCs and MBTs are better suited in desert, grassland and maybe taigas and Carboniferous forests and possibly wet savannahs in brazil. But jungles is kind of a question mark to me.

So the vehicles you see could be good or better to use in Jungles, Swamps, wetlands places like Vietnam, Laos, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and Thailand and even possible in mountainous regions like in India, Bhutan, and Nepal.
Thanks, I've been interested in these type of stuff since the War on Marawi here in the Philippines, always wondering if we have the right equipment for another war against terrorists
 
Jan 2013
1,207
Anywhere
#40
Thanks, I've been interested in these type of stuff since the War on Marawi here in the Philippines, always wondering if we have the right equipment for another war against terrorists
Your welcome.
And i know about the situation in the Philippines. Especially after that church bombing. Some of the equipment that the army has are pretty outdated. Though I think having vehicles like the Simba, V-150, AIFV, M113, & Humvee are pretty good. But as for a Island Nation or small nation. Its best to upgrade or have these kind of vehicles like the ones I shower you. However I do agree with aggienation that helicopters are the best to use in jungle environments. Like armed helicopters or gunships.
 

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