heirs of overthrown dynasties regaining the throne

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,969
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Somewhere I thought I saw a thread asking about historical cases of the heirs of long overthrown dynasties regaining the original throne or a different one.

If anyone can find that thread and link this one to it I would be grateful.

In the mean while I guess I can start another discussion.

The Regnal Chronologies site - appendix Pretenders - Carolingian gives this lineage. Pretenders

The Lotharingian Inheritence The above list records the descent from the eldest stemma of Charlemagne's heirs. But politically, that line was marginalized entirely, and the Imperial succession went to a younger son, Louis the Pious. He had four legitimate sons, three of whom contended for mastery over the Empire after 840. In June of 843, the Empire was sundered into parts - a Kingdom of the East Franks (which evolved into Germany), a Kingdom of the West Franks (which evolved into France), and a Kingdom of the Middle, or Central Franks; Lotharingia. This latter state originally comprised a wandering strip of territory involving the Low Countries, Alsace and Lorraine, Switzerland, and northern Italy. Hopelessly indefensible, it was quickly carved up and absorbed by it's neighbours, mainly Germany. It remains of interest, however, because it was the region assigned to Louis' eldest son, and the one who became Roman Emperor after him - Lothar. Although his inheritence vanished entirely after two generations, his line did not, and the core of the region still recalls his name - "Lorraine" is simply the French for "Lotharingia". What happened to his descendents? They stayed until recent times within the core of Central Francia, and their line is not without interest (indeed, it probably has a better claim to a Carolingian legacy than the above list). What is assumed in the following list is a basic Salic succession where possible, although it will be seen that regular forays through female lines is required. Enumeration is internally consistent, as if they had actually succeeded one another, but does not reflect actual numerals used as such.
CAROLINGIAN
Lothar I (HRE).................................840-855
Lothar II (King of Lotharingia)................855-869
Hugo (Duke of Alsace)..........................869-895
Gisela (fem.)...................................895-908
DENMARK
Reginhilde (fem.)...............................908-931 >
HAMALAND
Mathilde (fem.)...............................931 >-968
SAXON
Otto I (HRE) the Great.........................968-973
Otto II (HRE)..................................973-983
Otto III (HRE).................................983-1002
Sophia (fem.)..................................1002-1039
Adelheid I (fem.)..............................1039-1045
LOTHRINGEN (Keldachgau, Saffenberg)
Hermann I (Archbishop of Köln)................1045-1056
Konrad (Duke of Bavaria)......................1056-1061
Adolf I of Berg...............................1061-1063 >
Hermann II of Saffenberg (C. of Nörvenich)..1063 >-1100
Adalbert I (Count of Nörvenich)...............1100-1110
Adolf II (Count in Kölngau & Ruhrgau).........1110-1152
Adolf III (Count in Roergau)..................1152-1158
Hermann III (Count of Müllenark)..............1158-1172
Adolf IV......................................1172-1186
Adalbert II...................................1186-1211
Hermann IV....................................1211-1248
Adelheid II (fem.).............................1248-1267
LIMBURG (Luxembourg)
Heinrich I (Count of Luxembourg)..............1267-1281
Heinrich II (Count of Luxembourg).............1281-1288
Heinrich III (HRE)............................1288-1313
Jan (King of Bohemia).........................1313-1346
Karl (HRE, King of Bohemia)...................1346-1378
Wenzel (HRE, King of Bohemia).................1378-1419
Sigismund (HRE, King of Bohemia & Hungary)....1419-1437
Elisabeth (fem.)...............................1437-1442
HABSBURG
Ladislas (King of Bohemia and Hungary)........1442-1457
Anna (fem.)....................................1457-1462
WETTIN (Saxe-Thuringia)
Margarethe (fem.)..............................1462-1501
HOHENZOLLERN
Joachim I (Margrave of Brandenburg)...........1501-1535
Joachim II (Margrave of Brandenburg)..........1535-1571
Johann Georg (Margrave of Brandenburg)........1571-1598
Joachim Friedrich (Margrave of Brandenburg)...1598-1608
Johann Sigismund (Duke in Prussia)............1608-1620
Georg Wilhelm (Duke in Prussia)...............1620-1640
Friedrich Wilhelm I (Duke in Prussia).........1640-1688
Friedrich I (King in Prussia).................1688-1713
Friedrich Wilhelm II (King in Prussia)........1713-1740
Friedrich II the Great (King in Prussia)......1740-1786
Friedrich Wilhelm III (King in Prussia).......1786-1797
Friedrich Wilhelm IV (King in Prussia)........1797-1840
Friedrich Wilhelm V (King in Prussia).........1840-1861
Wilhelm I (German Emperor)....................1861-1888
Friedrich III (German Emperor).....................1888
Wilhelm II (German Emperor)...................1888-1941
Friedrich Wilhelm VI..........................1941-1951
Ludwig Ferdinand..............................1951-1994
Georg Friedrich...............................1994-

Note that it makes the emperors of the German Empire the rightful heirs by male-preference primogeniture of three earlier dynasties of Carolingian and Holy Roman Emperors. Note that technically the three previous dynasties, the imperial branch of the Carolingians, the Saxons or Ottonians, and the imperial branch of the House of Luxemburg weren't overthrown or deposed, but lost the throne due to lack of male lineage or agnatic heirs. Lack of male lineage heirs does not mean lack of any heirs, of course.

One problem with this lineage is that it uses male-preference primogeniture to trace the heirs down to German Crown Prince Wilhelm who died in 1951 and then continues with his heirs according to the German succession laws including agnatic or male only primogeniture down to Georg Friedrich the present heir to the kingdom of Prussia and German Empire.

If agnatic or male only primogenitrue had been followed from the start, the heir of Emperor Sigismund who died in 1437 should have been his cousin Louis of Luxemburg (1418-1475), count of Saint Pol, Brienne, Ligny, etc. and then his son Peter II (died 1482) then Anthony Count of Ligny (died 1519) and his descendants down to Charles Duke of Brienne (1562-1618), the last of the Luxemburg dynasty, and then to the family most closely related to the Duke Charles.

For seventeen heirs the same person had been both the heir of the Luxemburg Dynasty by male-preference primogeniture and also the heir of the Electors of brandenburg by agnatic primogeniture, but after German Crown Prince Wilhelm who died in 1951 there were two different heirs by the different rules of succession for the first time in centuries.

So the next heirs by male-preference primogeniture are:

Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (1906-1940) Oldest son of German Crown Prince Wilhelm.
Princess Felicitas of Prussia (1934-2009) daughter, married first Dinnies van der Osten.
Hubertus Christoph Joachim Friedrich von der Osten, son (born 5 May 1964).

Another problem is that the Luxemburg Dynasty was not the rightful heirs of either the Carolingian emperors or the Saxon emperors. The given descent of the Saxon emperors from the Carolingian emperors would give them a good claim to be their genealogical heirs, but it is uncertain and not proven. And similarly the Luxemburg emperors are not proven to be the heirs by male-preference primogeniture of the Saxon dynasty emperors.

That makes Wilhem I, who became German Emperor in 1871, the rightful heir by male preference primogeniture of only one former imperial dynasty, the Luxemburg dynasty that ruled on and off from 1308 to 1437.

Ladislaus Posthumous King of Hungary and Bohemia, etc. (1440-1457) had two sisters. Anne, (1432-1432) the older married Wilhem III of Saxony, Landgrave of Thuringia and Margrave of Meissen. Their older daughter Margaret (1449-1501) married John Cicero, Elector of Brandenburg and was the ancestress of the later Hohenzollerns listed above.

Elizabeth (1438-1505), the younger sister of Ladislaus Posthumous, married Casimir IV Jagiellon (1497-1492) King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania. Their oldest son Saint Casimir (1458-1484) had no children. The next oldest son Vladislaus II Jagiellon (1456-1516) was elected king of Bohemia in 1471 and king of Hungary in 1490, thus regaining the kingdoms of his Luxemburg ancestors. His son King Louis II (1506-1526) of Hungary and Bohemia died childless. Louis's sister Anne (1503-1547) married Ferdinand I (1503-1564) king of Hungary and Bohemia in her right 1526, King of the Romans 1531, and Emperor 1558-1564.

Thus all kings of Bohemia from 1471 to 1918, Kings of Hungary from 1490 to 1918, Holy Roman Emperors from 1564 to 1806, and Austrian Emperors from 1804 to 1918, were descendants of the Luxemburg Dynasty Kings of Hungary (1387 to 1437) and Bohemia (1310 to 1437) and Holy Roman Emperors (1308 to 1314, 1347 to 1400, and 1410 to 1437).
 
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MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,969
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Of course there are heirs of the Saxon or Ottonian Dynasty - it is merely that the emperors of the Luxemburg dynasty were not the rightful heirs of the Ottonian Dynasty.

in "Heirs of the Holy Roman Emperors" page 2 post number 17:

http://historum.com/european-history/123117-heirs-holy-roman-emperors-2.html

I trace the heirs of Emperor Otto II, son of Otto I and father of the childless Otto III, by male preference primogeniture down to Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern (born 20 April 1952) a distant cousin of the German emperors and kings of Prussia.

The heirs of Otto II by agnatic primogeniture would be an entirely different line of descent, of course.
 
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Dec 2014
1,082
Europe
Somewhere I thought I saw a thread asking about historical cases of the heirs of long overthrown dynasties regaining the original throne or a different one.

If anyone can find that thread and link this one to it I would be grateful.

In the mean while I guess I can start another discussion.
Well, there's the quite well known case of Emperor Puyi, who lost the throne of China but later gained the throne in his ancestral homeland of Manchuria. That's definitely a case of a deposed dynasty gaining a new throne.
 
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M9Powell

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
4,455
appalacian Mtns
Okay let's restore the Dal Riadh or the Picts & I can be HMFIC. 1st order of business is going to be my hareem. I'm 59 so we need to get that royal succession thang going quickly. Freckled redheads get priority. They can dance around stone circles naked for the official state religion.
 
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Sep 2012
1,121
Taiwan
The Han and Tang dynasties are obvious examples, after the Wang Mang and Wu Zetian interregnums respectively. There are minor cases throughout the rest of Chinese history. The Sima family restored their rule after Huan Xuan seized the throne in the Eastern Jin; a descendant of the Xiao clan (I forget his name) tried unsuccessfully to 're-found' the Liang in the Sui-Tang transition. One could make a poor case for Liu Bei and Liu Yuan regaining the Han throne.
 
Sep 2015
208
An unpleasant place
Surprised nobody's mentioned the restoration of the Bourbons after Napeoleon's defeats yet.

Or the restorations of the Bonapartes during the Hundred days and Napoleon III's reign, for that matter.

Also, the Idrisids had four separate periods of rule in Morocco: 789-917, 925-927, 937-974, and 1465-1471.
 
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Matthew Amt

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
2,988
MD, USA
Charles II of England springs to mind. Probably one or two during the Wars of the Roses as well? I used to know those guys a little better...

Matthew
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,969
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
The thread that I remember asked about heirs returning to power after much longer periods of time out of power.

I think that it was inspired by Lord of the Rings where Aragorn restored the kingship in Arnor and Gondor despite both kingdoms being without a king for a thousand years, and the act that Aragorn's branch of the dynasty had not ruled in Gondor for three thousand years.

That was sort of like a descendant of Confucious taking power in China and restoring the Shang Dynasty.

That is why I started with an example of descendants of a former dynasty gaining the same thrones and different thrones after a somewhat longer period than the Stuart, Bonaparte and Bourbon interregnums.

For an example of what would be interesting, the Northern Wei Dynasty ruled northern China during the Northern and Southern Dynasties period. The Northern Northern Wei reigned from 386 to 535 and Split into Western Wei 535-556 and Eastern Wei 535-550. The Northern Wei Dynasty is noted for the short generations of the emperors. The dynasty's clan name was changed from Touba to Yuan as they became more Chinese.

The notorious Yuan Shikai (1859-1916) claimed to be descended from the Northern Wei. He was president of China 1912 to 1916, and briefly tried to found a new imperial dynasty in 1915-1916. If he really was descended from the Northern Wei Dynasty his brief imperial restoration would have been 1,360 years after the fall of Western Wei.
 
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Sep 2012
1,121
Taiwan
For an example of what would be interesting, the Northern Wei Dynasty ruled northern China during the Northern and Southern Dynasties period. The Northern Northern Wei reigned from 386 to 535 and Split into Western Wei 535-556 and Eastern Wei 535-550. The Northern Wei Dynasty is noted for the short generations of the emperors. The dynasty's clan name was changed from Touba to Yuan as they became more Chinese.

The notorious Yuan Shikai (1859-1916) claimed to be descended from the Northern Wei. He was president of China 1912 to 1916, and briefly tried to found a new imperial dynasty in 1915-1916. If he really was descended from the Northern Wei Dynasty his brief imperial restoration would have been 1,360 years after the fall of Western Wei.
When did he claim he was descended from the Northern Wei - or are you just giving a hypothetical? Their surnames are in fact different, 元 and 袁.
 
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