Heirs of the "Byzantine" Empire?

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,806
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Stop the presses!

Here is a line of heirs of Emperor Alexius III Angelos, Emperor theodore I Laskaris, King Stephen V of Hungary, King Stefan Dragutin of Serbia, and of the Kotromanic Dynasty of Bosnia that I gave in the previous post number 93. This line now seems inacurate.

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1) Emperor Alexios III Angelos.
2) Anna Komnene Angelina (1175/80?-1212) Daughter. Married First Sebastokrator Isaac Komnenos (died soon after 1196).
3) Theodora Angelina Komnene. Daughter. Married Ivanko, a relative of Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Asen I. No known children.
Anna Komnene Angelina (1175/80?-1212) married Second Theodoros Komnenos Laskaris (1171/74?-1221) Emperor Theodore I Laskaris at Nicaea.
4) Maria Laskarina (c.1206-1270) daughter. Wife of Bela IV of Hungary.
5) King Stephen V of Hungary (1239-1272) son.
6) Catherine (1255/1257-?) First or Second Daughter. Wife of King Stefan Dragutin of Serbia.
7) Vladislav (died after 1326) Son. Possible descendants.
8) Jelisaveta (died 1331) Sister. Wife of Stefan Kotroman Ban of Bosnia.
9) Stefan Kotromanic (died 1353) son. Ban of bosnia.
10) Jelisaveta (c.1340-1387) Daughter. Queen of Hungary and Poland.
11) Queen Maria of Hungary (1371-1395) Daughter. Childless.
12) Queen Jadviga of Poland (1373-1400) Sister. Childless.
13) Stefan Tvertko II King of Bosnia (died 1443) Great grandson of Stefan Kotromanic.
14) Frederick II Count of Cilli (C.1379-1454) Third Cousin (Son of Herman II of Cilli, Son of Herman I of Cilli and Catharine of Bosnia Daughter of Vladislav Kotromanic brother of Stefan Kotromanic).
15) Ulric Count of Cilli (1406-1456) Son. No surviving descendants.
16) Ladislaus King of Hugary and Bohemia. (1440-1457) First Cousin Once Removed (Son of Eliazabeth (1409-1442) Daughter of Emperor Sigismund and Barbara (c. 1392-1451) Daughter of Herman II Count of Cilli).
17) Anna (1432-1462) Sister. Wife of Wilhelm III Landgrave of Thuringia.
18) Margareta (1449-1501) Daughter. Wife of Elector Johann Cicero of Brandenburg.
19) Joachim I Nestor (1484-1535) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
20) Joachim II Hektor (1505-1571) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
21) John George (1525-1598) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
22) Joachim Frederick (1546-1608) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
23) John Sigismund (1572-1619) Elector of Brandenburg & Duke of Prussia. Son.
24) George William (1595-1640) Elector of Brandenburg & Duke of Prussia. Son.
25) Frederick William (1620-1688) Elector of Brandenburg & Duke of Prussia. Son.
26) King Frederick I in Prussia (1657-17153 Son.
27) King Frederick William I in Prussia (1688-1740) Son.
28) King Frederick Ii of Prussia (1712-1786) Son. No Children.
29) King Frederick William II of Prussia (1744-1797) Nephew Son of Prince Augustus.
30) King Frederick William III of Prussia (1770-1840) Son.
31) King Frederick William IV of Prussia (1795-1861) Son. Childless.
32) Wilhelm I German Emperor (1797-1888) Brother.
33) Frederick III German Emperor (1831-1888) Son.
34) Wilhelm II German Emperor (1859-1941) Son.
35) Crown Prince Wilhelm (1882-1951) Son.

If equal marriage is not a requirement:
36) Princess Felicitas of Prussia (1934-2009) Granddaughter. (Daughter of Prince Wilhelm son of Crown Prince Wilhelm).
37) Hubertus Christoph Joachim Friedrich von der Osten (Born 1964) Son.

If male lineage but not equal marriage is a requirement;

36) Louis Ferdinand Prince of Prussia (1907-1994). Second Son.
37) Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia (9 February 1939 - 29 September 2015) Oldest Son Made unequal marriage and renounced his rights.
38) Philip Kirill Prinz von Prussen (born 1968). Son.

If equal marriage is a requirement:
36) Louis Ferdinand Prince of Prussia (1907-1994). Second Son.
37) Georg Friedrich Prince of Prussia (born 1976) Grandson, Son of Prince Louis Ferdinad

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Research on March 24 and 25, 2017 indicates that Barbara of Cilli or Celji, wife of Emperor Sigismund, and her descendants are not the best heirs of the Counts of Cilli and thus of Emperor Alexius III Angelos, Emperor Theodore I Laskaris, King Stephen V of Hungary, King Stefan Dragutin of Serbia, and the Kotromanic Dynasty of Bosnia.

So here is the revised line of heirs to the present:

1) Emperor Alexios III Angelos.
2) Anna Komnene Angelina (1175/80?-1212) Daughter. Married First Sebastokrator Isaac Komnenos (died soon after 1196).
3) Theodora Angelina Komnene. Daughter. Married Ivanko, a relative of Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Asen I. No known children.
Anna Komnene Angelina (1175/80?-1212) married Second Theodoros Komnenos Laskaris (1171/74?-1221) Emperor Theodore I Laskaris at Nicaea.
4) Maria Laskarina (c.1206-1270) daughter. Wife of Bela IV of Hungary.
5) King Stephen V of Hungary (1239-1272) son.
6) Catherine (1255/1257-?) First or Second Daughter. Wife of King Stefan Dragutin of Serbia.
7) Vladislav (died after 1326) Son. Possible descendants.
8) Jelisaveta (died 1331) Sister. Wife of Stefan Kotroman Ban of Bosnia.
9) Stefan Kotromanic (died 1353) son. Ban of bosnia.
10) Jelisaveta (c.1340-1387) Daughter. Queen of Hungary and Poland.
11) Queen Maria of Hungary (1371-1395) Daughter. Childless.
12) Queen Jadviga of Poland (1373-1400) Sister. Childless.
13) Stefan Tvertko II King of Bosnia (died 1443) Great grandson of Stefan Kotromanic.
14) Frederick II Count of Cilli (C.1379-1454) Third Cousin (Son of Herman II of Cilli, Son of Herman I of Cilli and Catharine of Bosnia Daughter of Vladislav Kotromanic brother of Stefan Kotromanic).
15) Ulrich II Count of Cilli (1406-1456) Son. No surviving children/descendants.
[Herman III of Cilli/Celji (1380-1426) Uncle of Urich II, brother of Frederick II and Empress Barbara of Cilli]
CROATIA
16) Margareta of Celji (d. 1480) Daughter of Hermann III, niece of Empress Barbara. Married first, Herman I, Count of Montfort and Pfannberg in Bregenz (died 1434/35), Married second Wladislaw Duke of Seschen and Glogau (died 1460).
CROATIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margareta_of_Celje
17) Herman II of Montgofort-Bregenz (died c. 1482). Son.
Pedigree: Hermann II of MONTFORT-BREGENZ
Oldest son according to Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margareta_of_Celje
18) Georg II (III) of Montfort (c.1472-1544) son.
Pedigree: Georg II (III) von MONTFORT
19) Jakob I von Montfort-Pfannberg. (d. 1573) Son.
Pedigree: Jakob I von MONTFORT-PFANNBERG
20) Wolfgang III von MONTFORT-PFANNBERG (d. 1619) Older (?) Son.
Pedigree: Wolfgang III von MONTFORT-PFANNBERG
21) Hugo XV (IV) von MONTFORT-TETTNANG (d. 1662) Son.
Pedigree: Hugo XV (IV) von MONTFORT-TETTNANG
22) Johann VIII von MONTFORT-TETTNANG (1627-1686) Older son.
Pedigree: Johann VIII von MONTFORT-TETTNANG
Pedigree: Johann Anton I von MONTFORT-TETTNANG
23) Maria Franziska Elisabeth von MONTFORT-TETTNANG (1668-1726) Married Johann Christoph von WALDBURG-ZEIL.
Pedigree: Maria Franziska Elisabeth von MONTFORT-TETTNANG
24) Katharina (Maria) von WALDBURG zu Zeil (1702-1739) Married Franz Wilhelm Nikolaus von HOHENZOLLERN-BERG
Pedigree: Katharina (Maria) von WALDBURG zu Zeil
25) Johanna von HOHENZOLLERN-BERG (1727-1787) Married Karl Friedrich (Reichsfurst) of HOHENZOLLERN-SIGMARINGEN.
Pedigree: Johanna von HOHENZOLLERN-BERG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Friedrich,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
26) Anton Aloys, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1762–1831) Oldest surviving son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Aloys,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
27) Karl, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (20 February 1785 – 11 March 1853) Son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen
28) Prince Karl Anton of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1811-1885) Son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Anton,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern
Hohenzollern
29) Leopold, Prince of Hohenzollern (1835-1905) Odler son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern
30) William, Prince of Hohenzollern (1864-1927) Older Son. Older brother of king Ferdinand I of Romania.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern
31) Frederick, Prince of Hohenzollern (1891-1965). Older son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern
32) Friedrich Wilhelm, Prince of Hohenzollern (1924-2010) Oldest Son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Wilhelm,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern
33) Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern (born 20 April 1952) Oldest son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Friedrich,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern

His oldest son and heir is Alexander, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (born 16 March 1987).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander,_Hereditary_Prince_of_Hohenzollern

I am pleased to have finally traced the heirs of the Counts of Cilli or Celji by male preference primogeniture, but I a little suspicious of the generations of the Montforts known only through fabpedigree.com and hope to find a better source.
 
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MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,806
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Stop the Presses!
I gave this line of possible heirs from Emperor Isaac II Angelos to the present in post number 90.

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Heirs of Emperor Isaac II Angelos (1156-1204) Reigned 1185-1195 & 1203-1204.
1) Emperor Isaac II Angelos (1156-1204) First emperor of dynasty.
(Alexios IV Angelos (1180/83-1204) Co Emperor reigned 1203-1204. Son. Died before Father)
2) Manuel Angelos (after 1292?-1212?) Son of Isaac II by second marriage. Childless.
3) John "Kaloioannes" Anglelos (died before 13 Januaary 1254) Brother. Ruled duchy of Syrmia in Hungary.
4) Maria Angelina. Daughter. Married Anseau de Cayeux. He supposedly lived to be very old and married several times including one or two Byzantine princesses. Some claim he was several men with the same name.
http://transemacabre.livejournal.com/143196.html


According to the Medieval Lands website's attempt to untangle the Anseau de Cayeux problem, Anseau (V) and his fourth wife Maria Angelina daughter of John Angelos were the parents of Anseau (VI) who died after November 1288 and Guillaume de Cayaux (died 1302) Seigneur de Dominois-en-Caieu, ancestors of the Seigneurs de Dominois. Thus there may have been descendants of Isaac II Angelos in northern France. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#AnseauCayeudiedafter1247

Charles of Anjou, King of Sicily, issued documents in 1280 to Maria Angelina to travel to Serbia to visit "her sister the Queen of Serbia". Thus Queen Helena of Serbia might have been another daughter of John Angelos and granddaughter of Isaac II Angelos.

5) Helena (died 1314) Possible Sister. Married King Stefan Uros I of Serbia (died 1280).
6) King Stefan Dragutin of Serbia (died 1316) Son. King of Serbia 1276-1282.
7) Vladislav. (died after 1326) Son. Allegedly had descendants.
8) Jelisaveta (died 1331) Sister. Wife of Stefan Kotroman Ban of Bosnia.
9) Stefan Kotromanic (died 1353) son. Ban of bosnia.
10) Jelisaveta (c.1340-1387) Daughter. Queen of Hungary and Poland.
11) Queen Maria of Hungary (1371-1395) Daughter. Childless.
12) Queen Jadviga of Poland (1373-1400) Sister. Childless.
13) Stefan Tvertko II King of Bosnia (died 1443) Great grandson of Stefan Kotromanic.
14) Frederick II Count of Cilli (C.1379-1454) Third Cousin (Son of Herman II of Cilli, Son of Herman I of Cilli and Catharine of Bosnia Daughter of Vladislav Kotromanic brother of Stefan Kotromanic).
15) Ulric Count of Cilli (1406-1456) Son. No surviving descendants.
16) Ladislaus King of Hugary and Bohemia. (1440-1457) First Cousin Once Removed (Son of Eliazabeth (1409-1442) Daughter of Emperor Sigismund and Barbara (c. 1392-1451) Daughter of Herman II Count of Cilli).
17) Anna (1432-1462) Sister. Wife of Wilhelm III Landgrave of Thuringia.
18) Margareta (1449-1501) Daughter. Wife of Elector Johann Cicero of Brandenburg.
19) Joachim I Nestor (1484-1535) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
20) Joachim II Hektor (1505-1571) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
21) John George (1525-1598) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
22) Joachim Frederick (1546-1608) Elector of Brandenburg. Son.
23) John Sigismund (1572-1619) Elector of Brandenburg & Duke of Prussia. Son.
24) George William (1595-1640) Elector of Brandenburg & Duke of Prussia. Son.
25) Frederick William (1620-1688) Elector of Brandenburg & Duke of Prussia. Son.
26) King Frederick I in Prussia (1657-17153 Son.
27) King Frederick William I in Prussia (1688-1740) Son.
28) King Frederick II of Prussia (1712-1786) Son. No Children.
29) King Frederick William II of Prussia (1744-1797) Nephew Son of Prince Augustus.
30) King Frederick William III of Prussia (1770-1840) Son.
31) King Frederick William IV of Prussia (1795-1861) Son. Childless.
32) Wilhelm I German Emperor (1797-1888) Brother.
33) Frederick III German Emperor (1831-1888) Son.
34) Wilhelm II German Emperor (1859-1941) Son.
35) Crown Prince Wilhelm (1882-1951) Son.

If equal marriage is not a requirement:
36) Princess Felicitas of Prussia (1934-2009) Granddaughter. (Daughter of Prince Wilhelm son of Crown Prince Wilhelm).
37) Hubertus Christoph Joachim Friedrich von der Osten (Born 1964) Son.

If male lineage but not equal marriage is a requirement;

36) Louis Ferdinand Prince of Prussia (1907-1994). Second Son.
37) Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia (9 February 1939 - 29 September 2015) Oldest Son Made unequal marriage and renounced his rights.
38) Philip Kirill Prinz von Prussen (born 1968). Son.

If equal marriage is a requirement:
33) Louis Ferdinand Prince of Prussia (1907-1994). Second Son.
(Prince Louis ferdinand (1944-1977)
34) Georg Friedrich Prince of Prussia (born 1976) Grandson, Son of Prince Louis Ferdinand (1944-1977).

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Research on March 24 and 25 indicates that Barbara of Cilli, Empress of Emperor Sigismund, was the not the correct heir by male-preference primogeniture of the Counts of Cilli/Celji.

Heirs of Emperor Isaac II Angelos (1156-1204) Reigned 1185-1195 & 1203-1204.
1) Emperor Isaac II Angelos (1156-1204) First emperor of dynasty.
(Alexios IV Angelos (1180/83-1204) Co Emperor reigned 1203-1204. Son. Died before Father)
2) Manuel Angelos (after 1292?-1212?) Son of Isaac II by second marriage. Childless.
3) John "Kaloioannes" Anglelos (died before 13 Januaary 1254) Brother. Ruled duchy of Syrmia in Hungary.
4) Maria Angelina. Daughter. Married Anseau de Cayeux. He supposedly lived to be very old and married several times including one or two Byzantine princesses. Some claim he was several men with the same name.
http://transemacabre.livejournal.com/143196.html


According to the Medieval Lands website's attempt to untangle the Anseau de Cayeux problem, Anseau (V) and his fourth wife Maria Angelina daughter of John Angelos were the parents of Anseau (VI) who died after November 1288 and Guillaume de Cayaux (died 1302) Seigneur de Dominois-en-Caieu, ancestors of the Seigneurs de Dominois. Thus there may have been descendants of Isaac II Angelos in northern France. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#AnseauCayeudiedafter1247

Charles of Anjou, King of Sicily, issued documents in 1280 to Maria Angelina to travel to Serbia to visit "her sister the Queen of Serbia". Thus Queen Helena of Serbia might have been another daughter of John Angelos and granddaughter of Isaac II Angelos.

5) Helena (died 1314) Possible Sister. Married King Stefan Uros I of Serbia (died 1280).
6) King Stefan Dragutin of Serbia (died 1316) Son. King of Serbia 1276-1282.
7) Vladislav. (died after 1326) Son. Allegedly had descendants.
8) Jelisaveta (died 1331) Sister. Wife of Stefan Kotroman Ban of Bosnia.
9) Stefan Kotromanic (died 1353) son. Ban of bosnia.
10) Jelisaveta (c.1340-1387) Daughter. Queen of Hungary and Poland.
11) Queen Maria of Hungary (1371-1395) Daughter. Childless.
12) Queen Jadviga of Poland (1373-1400) Sister. Childless.
13) Stefan Tvertko II King of Bosnia (died 1443) Great grandson of Stefan Kotromanic.
14) Frederick II Count of Cilli (C.1379-1454) Third Cousin (Son of Herman II of Cilli, Son of Herman I of Cilli and Catharine of Bosnia Daughter of Vladislav Kotromanic brother of Stefan Kotromanic).
15) Ulrich II Count of Cilli (1406-1456) Son. No surviving children/descendants.
[Herman III of Cilli/Celji (1380-1426) Uncle of Urich II, brother of Frederick II and Empress Barbara of Cilli]
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CROATIA.htm#_Toc359579550
16) Margareta of Celji (d. 1480) Daughter of Hermann III, niece of Empress Barbara. Married first, Herman I, Count of Montfort and Pfannberg in Bregenz (died 1434/35), Married second Wladislaw Duke of Teschen and Glogau (died 1460).
CROATIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margareta_of_Celje
17) Herman II of Montgofort-Bregenz (died c. 1482). Son.
http://fabpedigree.com/s024/f493659.htm
Oldest son according to Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margareta_of_Celje
18) Georg II (III) of Montfort (c.1472-1544) son.
http://fabpedigree.com/s062/f746829.htm
19) Jakob I von Montfort-Pfannberg. (d. 1573) Son.
http://fabpedigree.com/s096/f687436.htm
20) Wolfgang III von MONTFORT-PFANNBERG (d. 1619) Older (?) Son.
http://fabpedigree.com/s048/f343718.htm
21) Hugo XV (IV) von MONTFORT-TETTNANG (d. 1662) Son.
http://fabpedigree.com/s024/f671859.htm
22) Johann VIII von MONTFORT-TETTNANG (1627-1686) Older son.
http://fabpedigree.com/s074/f335929.htm
http://fabpedigree.com/s062/f335929.htm
23) Maria Franziska Elisabeth von MONTFORT-TETTNANG (1668-1726) Married Johann Christoph von WALDBURG-ZEIL.
http://fabpedigree.com/s087/f167964.htm
24) Katharina (Maria) von WALDBURG zu Zeil (1702-1739) Married Franz Wilhelm Nikolaus von HOHENZOLLERN-BERG
http://fabpedigree.com/s043/f583982.htm
25) Johanna von HOHENZOLLERN-BERG (1727-1787) Married Karl Friedrich (Reichsfurst) of HOHENZOLLERN-SIGMARINGEN.
Pedigree: Johanna von HOHENZOLLERN-BERG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_F...rn-Sigmaringen
26) Anton Aloys, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1762–1831) Oldest surviving son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_...rn-Sigmaringen
27) Karl, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (20 February 1785 – 11 March 1853) Son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl,_...rn-Sigmaringen
28) Prince Karl Anton of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1811-1885) Son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_A...f_Hohenzollern
Hohenzollern
29) Leopold, Prince of Hohenzollern (1835-1905) Odler son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopol...f_Hohenzollern
30) William, Prince of Hohenzollern (1864-1927) Older Son. Older brother of king Ferdinand I of Romania.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...f_Hohenzollern
31) Frederick, Prince of Hohenzollern (1891-1965). Older son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freder...f_Hohenzollern
32) Friedrich Wilhelm, Prince of Hohenzollern (1924-2010) Oldest Son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedr...f_Hohenzollern
33) Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern (born 20 April 1952) Oldest son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_F...f_Hohenzollern

His oldest son and heir is Alexander, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (born 16 March 1987).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexan...f_Hohenzollern

I am pleased to have finally traced the heirs of the Counts of Cilli or Celji by male preference primogeniture, but I a little suspicious of the generations of the Montforts known only through fabpedigree.com and hope to find a better source.

I have to note that this site:
http://www.historyofroyalwomen.com/the-royal-women/alternative-lines-of-succession-to-the-english-crown/

Gives a slightly different version.

It claims that Hugo XVII, count of Montfort-Bregenz was the oldest son of number 17) Herman II but had no legitimate children and was succeeded by his brother number 18) George II. fabpedigree.com doesn't even include Hugo XVII. The alternate lines of succession to the English throne then gives george II's daughter Franzisca as his heir, and not his son Jakob, because it is tracing descent though the oldest child ether male or female. Thus the succeeding generations are totally different families.

Note a that another attempt to trace the heirs of William the Conqueror by the new rule of absolute primogeniture gives totally different results. Great Britain: A Post Modern Monarchy. http://my.raex.com/~obsidian/Britpret.html

It is ironic that chance has given the two rival branches of the Angelos Dynasty the same heirs. Emperor Isaac II and his brother Alexios III both have several possible lines of heirs. But by coincidence both have lines of heirs going to the counts of Cilli/Celji. And by coincidence both lines of descent from the Counts of Cilli passed through different branches of the Hohenzollern Dynasty.

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MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,806
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
ACCIDENTAL DUPLICATE OF POST # 104

Heirs of the Komnenos or Comnenus Dynasty.

Manuel Eroticos Komnenos (d. <1025)
1) Isaac I Komnenos (1005/1010-1061) Older son. Emperor 1057-1059. Married Ekaterina of Bulgaria, daughter of Ivan Vladislav, Tsar of the Bulgarians 1015-1018.
Manuel Komnenos (d.< 1057) Son of Isaac I. Childless?
Maria Komnene (d. > 1059) Entered a monastery with her parents 1059.
John Komnenos (1010/15-1069) Younger Brother of Isaac I.
2) Emperor Alexios I Komnenos (1056/57-1118) A middle son of John Komnenos. Emperor 1081-1118.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
3) Emperor John II Komnenos (1087-1143) Oldest Son. Married Irene, born Piroska?, of Hungary, daughter of Ladislaus I and descendant of Otto the Great.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
4) Emperor Manuel II Komnenos (1118?-1180) Fourth son, but selected as Emperor by his father.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
5) Alexios II Komnenos (1169-1183) Only legitimates son. Brutally murdered by usurper Andronikos I Komnenos, cousin of Manuel I, who also permitted the massacre of thousands of Italians.

Since Andronikos I Komnenos can not be considered the rightful heir of Alexious II, and eliminated the legitimate children of Manuel I. the rightful heir of the Komnenos Dynasty must be found among the children of Emperor John II.

[Alexios Komnenos (1106/07-1142) Oldest Son of Emperor John II. Co emperor 1119]
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
[Marie Komnene (d. 1167) Only Child. Married Alexios Auxuchos (d.>1170)
6) John Komnenos Auxuchos (d. 1201). Son. Pansebastos. Imperial claimant 1200.
BYZANTINE NOBILITY
There are no known descendants of Marie Komnene and Alexious Auxuchos. It is speculated that John Komnenos Auxuchos had a daughter who married Emperor Alexios I Megas Komnenos of Trebizond.
But:
1) Emperor Alexios I Megas Komnenos as a grandson of Emperor Andronikos I ho murdered Emperor Alexios II and so his descendants are not rightful heirs of Emperor Alexios II.
2) There are probably descendants of Emperor Alexios I Megas Komnenos but I have not yet traced their descent to the present.
3) And it is speculation that the wife of Alexios I Megas Komnenos might be a descendant of Marie Komnene and Alexious Auxuchos.

So as far as we known the lineage of co-emperor Alexios the oldest son of John II died out in 1201.

[Andronikos Komenos (1108?-1142). Second son of Emperor John II. Sebastokrator]
[John Doukos Komnenos (1128?-1176) Oldest son of Andronikos Komenos. Married a Taronitissa.]
[Possible son Alexios Komnenos (d. 1187]
7) Marie Komnene (1154-1217) Only known child of John Doukos Komnenos. Married first Amaury I, King of Jerusalem. Married second Balian of Ibelin, Lord of Nablus.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
8) Isabelle (1174-1206) Queen of Jerusalem. Daughter.
JERUSALEM
9) Maria of Montferrat (1192-1212) Queen of Jerusalem. Daughter of Isabelle and Conrad of Montferrat. Married John of Brienne (1170/75-1237) King of Jerusalem jure uxoris.
JERUSALEM
10) Isabelle/Yolanda Queen of Jerusalem (1211-1228). Daughter of Queen Maria and King John. Married Emperor Frederick II (1294-1250) King of Jerusalem I]jure uxoris[/I].
JERUSALEM
11) Konrad IV (1228-1254). Son. King of the Romans 1237. King of Jerusalem 1228. King of Sicily 1250. Rightful heir of the Salian and Hohenstaufen dynasties of Holy Roman Emperor and the Komnenos dynasty of eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Emperors.
GERMANY, KINGS
12) Konrad V "Conradin" (1252-1268) Only legitimate child. King of Jerusalem and Sicily and Duke of Swabia 1254. Rightful heir of the Salian and Hohenstaufen dynasties of Holy Roman Emperor and the Komnenos dynasty of eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Emperors.
GERMANY, KINGS
[Alix of Jerusalem (1196/97-1247) Daughter of Queen Isabelle and her third husband Count Henry II of Champagne, King of Jerusalem. Married Hugues I (1193/94-1218), King of Cyprus]
JERUSALEM
[Henry I (1217-1254) Son. King of Cyprus.]
[Hugues III (1252-1257) Son. King of Cyprus. Childless]
CYPRUS
[Marie de Lusignan (<1215-1251/53) Aunt: Daughter of Alix and King Hugues I of Cyprus. Married Walter IV (1205-1244/47), Count of Briene, Count of Jaffa.]
13) Hugues of Brienne (d.1296) Son of Marie and Walter of Brienne. Claimed the regency of the Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1267. Married Isabel of Athens.
CHAMPAGNE - BRIENNE
14) Walter V of Brienne (1278?-1312) Son. Duke of Athens and Count of Lecce.
LATIN LORDSHIPS IN GREECE
15) Walter VI of Brienne (1302-1256) Son. Duke of Athens, Count of Lecce, lord of Florence.
[Walter, Jeanne, and Margaret. Children, died young]
16) Isabella of Brienne (d.1360) Sister. Married Walter III (1302-1345) Lord of Enghien.
LATIN LORDSHIPS IN GREECE
17) Sohier II of Enghien (d. 1364) Older son. Count of Brienne & titual Duke of Athens.
18) Walter III (d.1381) Son. Titular Duke of Athens. Childless.
19) John of Enghien (d. 1380) Uncle, son of Isabella and Walter III.
20) Pierre (d. 1384) Son. Childless.
21) Marie of Enghien (1367-1445/46) sister. Married first Raymond Orsini of Balzo (1361-1406), Prince of Taranto.
HAINAUT
22) Giantonio of Balzo (1386-1463) Son Prince of Taranto. Childless.
23) Catharine () Sister. Married Tristan of Clermont.
CENTRAL ITALY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Taranto,_Countess_of_Copertino
24) Isabella of Cleremont (c. 1424-1465) Older daughter. Princess of Taranto. Married 144/45 Ferdinand/Ferrante I (d. 1494) King of Naples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Clermont
25) King Alfonso I of Naples (1448-1495) Oldest son.
SICILY
26) Ferdinand/Ferrente II of Naples (1469-1496) Son. Childless.
SICILY
27) Isabella of Naples (1470-1524) Sister. Married Giangaleazzo Sforza (1469-1494), Duke of Milan.
SICILY
28) Bona Sforza (1494/95-1558) Daughter. Married Sigismund I The Old (1467-1448), King of Poland.
POLAND
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund_I_the_Old#Marriages_and_issue
29) King Sigismund II Augustus of Poland (1520-1572). Son Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund_II_Augustus
30) Sophie Jabiellon (1522-1575). Oldest surviving Sister. Married Duke Henry V of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel. Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Jagiellon,_Duchess_of_Brunswick-L%C3%BCneburg
31) Queen Anna I of Poland (1523-1596) sister. Married King Stephen Bathory. Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Jagiellon,_Duchess_of_Brunswick-L%C3%BCneburg
32) King Sigismund III Vasa (1566-1632) Nephew. King of Poland 1587-1632, King of Sweden 1592-1599.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund_III_Vasa
33) Wladyslaw Vasa (1595-1648) Son. King of Poland. No surviving legitimate children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_IV_Vasa#Marriages
34) John II Casimir Vasa (1609-1672) Brother. King of Poland. Childless. Last surviving descendant of Bona Sforza and Sigismund I The Old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_II_Casimir_Vasa
[King Frederick IV of Naples (1452-1504) Younger son of number 24 Isabella of Clermont and Ferdinand I]
[Ferdinand of Naples(1488-1550) Only Son. Childless]
[Charlotte of Naples (1480-1506) sister, daughter of Frederick IV of Naples. Married Guy XV Count of Laval]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_of_Naples#Marriages_and_children
[Anne of Laval (1505-1554) only surviving child. Princess of Taranto. Married Francis II de La Tremoille, viscount of Thouars]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_of_Naples#Marriages_and_children
[Louis III de La Tremoille, (1521-1577) Oldest Son. First Duke of Thouars]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_III_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
[Claude de La Tremoille, (1566-1604) Son. Second Duke of Thouars]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
35) Henry de La Tremoille, (1598-1674) Son. Third Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
[Henry Charles de La Tremoille, (1620-1672) Son]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Charles_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
36) Charles Belgique Hollande de La Tremoille, (1655-1709) Son of Henry Charles. Fourth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Belgique_Hollande_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
37) Charles Louis Bretagne de La Tremoille, (1655-1709) Son. Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Louis_Bretagne_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
34) Charles Armand Rene de La Tremoille, (1708-1741) Son. Sixth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Armand_Ren%C3%A9_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
35) Jean-Bretagne-Charles de La Tremoille, (1737-1792) Son. Seventh Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bretagne_Charles_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
36) Charles Bretagne Marie de La Tremoille, (1764-1839) Son. Eighth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bretagne_Marie_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
37) Louis Charles Charles de La Tremoille, (1838-1911) Son. Ninth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charles_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
38) Louis Charles Marie de La Tremoille, (1863-1921) Son. Tenth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charles_Marie_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
39) Louis Jean Marie de La Tremoille, (1910-1933) Son. Twelfth Duke of Thouars. Prince of Taranto, Prince of Thalmond. Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jean_Marie_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
40) Charlotte Marie Clothilde de La Tremoille (1892-1971) Sister. Married Henry Florent Lamoral (1881-1967) Prince of Ligne.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
41) Prince Jean Charles de Ligne e La Tremoille (1911-2005). Son.
e La Tremoille (1892-1971)
42) Charles-Antoine Lamoral de Ligne de La Tremoille (born 1946). Son.
e La Tremoille (1892-1971)

There is a problem with this lineage though.

ACCIDENTAL DUPLICATE OF POST # 104
 
Last edited:

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,806
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
ACCIDENTAL DUPLICATE OF POST # 103

Heirs of the Komnenos or Comnenus Dynasty.

Manuel Eroticos Komnenos (d. <1025)
1) Isaac I Komnenos (1005/1010-1061) Older son. Emperor 1057-1059. Married Ekaterina of Bulgaria, daughter of Ivan Vladislav, Tsar of the Bulgarians 1015-1018.
Manuel Komnenos (d.< 1057) Son of Isaac I. Childless?
Maria Komnene (d. > 1059) Entered a monastery with her parents 1059.
John Komnenos (1010/15-1069) Younger Brother of Isaac I.
2) Emperor Alexios I Komnenos (1056/57-1118) A middle son of John Komnenos. Emperor 1081-1118.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
3) Emperor John II Komnenos (1087-1143) Oldest Son. Married Irene, born Piroska?, of Hungary, daughter of Ladislaus I and descendant of Otto the Great.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
4) Emperor Manuel II Komnenos (1118?-1180) Fourth son, but selected as Emperor by his father.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
5) Alexios II Komnenos (1169-1183) Only legitimates son. Brutally murdered by usurper Andronikos I Komnenos, cousin of Manuel I, who also permitted the massacre of thousands of Italians.

Since Andronikos I Komnenos can not be considered the rightful heir of Alexious II, and eliminated the legitimate children of Manuel I. the rightful heir of the Komnenos Dynasty must be found among the children of Emperor John II.

[Alexios Komnenos (1106/07-1142) Oldest Son of Emperor John II. Co emperor 1119]
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
[Marie Komnene (d. 1167) Only Child. Married Alexios Auxuchos (d.>1170)
6) John Komnenos Auxuchos (d. 1201). Son. Pansebastos. Imperial claimant 1200.
BYZANTINE NOBILITY
There are no known descendants of Marie Komnene and Alexious Auxuchos. It is speculated that John Komnenos Auxuchos had a daughter who married Emperor Alexios I Megas Komnenos of Trebizond.
But:
1) Emperor Alexios I Megas Komnenos as a grandson of Emperor Andronikos I ho murdered Emperor Alexios II and so his descendants are not rightful heirs of Emperor Alexios II.
2) There are probably descendants of Emperor Alexios I Megas Komnenos but I have not yet traced their descent to the present.
3) And it is speculation that the wife of Alexios I Megas Komnenos might be a descendant of Marie Komnene and Alexious Auxuchos.

So as far as we known the lineage of co-emperor Alexios the oldest son of John II died out in 1201.

[Andronikos Komenos (1108?-1142). Second son of Emperor John II. Sebastokrator]
[John Doukos Komnenos (1128?-1176) Oldest son of Andronikos Komenos. Married a Taronitissa.]
[Possible son Alexios Komnenos (d. 1187]
7) Marie Komnene (1154-1217) Only known child of John Doukos Komnenos. Married first Amaury I, King of Jerusalem. Married second Balian of Ibelin, Lord of Nablus.
BYZANTIUM 1057-1204
8) Isabelle (1174-1206) Queen of Jerusalem. Daughter.
JERUSALEM
9) Maria of Montferrat (1192-1212) Queen of Jerusalem. Daughter of Isabelle and Conrad of Montferrat. Married John of Brienne (1170/75-1237) King of Jerusalem jure uxoris.
JERUSALEM
10) Isabelle/Yolanda Queen of Jerusalem (1211-1228). Daughter of Queen Maria and King John. Married Emperor Frederick II (1294-1250) King of Jerusalem I]jure uxoris[/I].
JERUSALEM
11) Konrad IV (1228-1254). Son. King of the Romans 1237. King of Jerusalem 1228. King of Sicily 1250. Rightful heir of the Salian and Hohenstaufen dynasties of Holy Roman Emperor and the Komnenos dynasty of eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Emperors.
GERMANY, KINGS
12) Konrad V "Conradin" (1252-1268) Only legitimate child. King of Jerusalem and Sicily and Duke of Swabia 1254. Rightful heir of the Salian and Hohenstaufen dynasties of Holy Roman Emperor and the Komnenos dynasty of eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Emperors.
GERMANY, KINGS
[Alix of Jerusalem (1196/97-1247) Daughter of Queen Isabelle and her third husband Count Henry II of Champagne, King of Jerusalem. Married Hugues I (1193/94-1218), King of Cyprus]
JERUSALEM
[Henry I (1217-1254) Son. King of Cyprus.]
[Hugues III (1252-1257) Son. King of Cyprus. Childless]
CYPRUS
[Marie de Lusignan (<1215-1251/53) Aunt: Daughter of Alix and King Hugues I of Cyprus. Married Walter IV (1205-1244/47), Count of Briene, Count of Jaffa.]
13) Hugues of Brienne (d.1296) Son of Marie and Walter of Brienne. Claimed the regency of the Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1267. Married Isabel of Athens.
CHAMPAGNE - BRIENNE
14) Walter V of Brienne (1278?-1312) Son. Duke of Athens and Count of Lecce.
LATIN LORDSHIPS IN GREECE
15) Walter VI of Brienne (1302-1256) Son. Duke of Athens, Count of Lecce, lord of Florence.
[Walter, Jeanne, and Margaret. Children, died young]
16) Isabella of Brienne (d.1360) Sister. Married Walter III (1302-1345) Lord of Enghien.
LATIN LORDSHIPS IN GREECE
17) Sohier II of Enghien (d. 1364) Older son. Count of Brienne & titual Duke of Athens.
18) Walter III (d.1381) Son. Titular Duke of Athens. Childless.
19) John of Enghien (d. 1380) Uncle, son of Isabella and Walter III.
20) Pierre (d. 1384) Son. Childless.
21) Marie of Enghien (1367-1445/46) sister. Married first Raymond Orsini of Balzo (1361-1406), Prince of Taranto.
HAINAUT
22) Giantonio of Balzo (1386-1463) Son Prince of Taranto. Childless.
23) Catharine () Sister. Married Tristan of Clermont.
CENTRAL ITALY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Taranto,_Countess_of_Copertino
24) Isabella of Cleremont (c. 1424-1465) Older daughter. Princess of Taranto. Married 144/45 Ferdinand/Ferrante I (d. 1494) King of Naples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Clermont
25) King Alfonso I of Naples (1448-1495) Oldest son.
SICILY
26) Ferdinand/Ferrente II of Naples (1469-1496) Son. Childless.
SICILY
27) Isabella of Naples (1470-1524) Sister. Married Giangaleazzo Sforza (1469-1494), Duke of Milan.
SICILY
28) Bona Sforza (1494/95-1558) Daughter. Married Sigismund I The Old (1467-1448), King of Poland.
POLAND
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund_I_the_Old#Marriages_and_issue
29) King Sigismund II Augustus of Poland (1520-1572). Son Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund_II_Augustus
30) Sophie Jabiellon (1522-1575). Oldest surviving Sister. Married Duke Henry V of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel. Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Jagiellon,_Duchess_of_Brunswick-L%C3%BCneburg
31) Queen Anna I of Poland (1523-1596) sister. Married King Stephen Bathory. Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Jagiellon,_Duchess_of_Brunswick-L%C3%BCneburg
32) King Sigismund III Vasa (1566-1632) Nephew. King of Poland 1587-1632, King of Sweden 1592-1599.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund_III_Vasa
33) Wladyslaw Vasa (1595-1648) Son. King of Poland. No surviving legitimate children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_IV_Vasa#Marriages
34) John II Casimir Vasa (1609-1672) Brother. King of Poland. Childless. Last surviving descendant of Bona Sforza and Sigismund I The Old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_II_Casimir_Vasa
[King Frederick IV of Naples (1452-1504) Younger son of number 24 Isabella of Clermont and Ferdinand I]
[Ferdinand of Naples(1488-1550) Only Son. Childless]
[Charlotte of Naples (1480-1506) sister, daughter of Frederick IV of Naples. Married Guy XV Count of Laval]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_of_Naples#Marriages_and_children
[Anne of Laval (1505-1554) only surviving child. Princess of Taranto. Married Francis II de La Tremoille, viscount of Thouars]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_of_Naples#Marriages_and_children
[Louis III de La Tremoille, (1521-1577) Oldest Son. First Duke of Thouars]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_III_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
[Claude de La Tremoille, (1566-1604) Son. Second Duke of Thouars]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
35) Henry de La Tremoille, (1598-1674) Son. Third Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
[Henry Charles de La Tremoille, (1620-1672) Son]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Charles_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
36) Charles Belgique Hollande de La Tremoille, (1655-1709) Son of Henry Charles. Fourth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Belgique_Hollande_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
37) Charles Louis Bretagne de La Tremoille, (1655-1709) Son. Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Louis_Bretagne_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
34) Charles Armand Rene de La Tremoille, (1708-1741) Son. Sixth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Armand_Ren%C3%A9_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
35) Jean-Bretagne-Charles de La Tremoille, (1737-1792) Son. Seventh Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bretagne_Charles_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
36) Charles Bretagne Marie de La Tremoille, (1764-1839) Son. Eighth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bretagne_Marie_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
37) Louis Charles Charles de La Tremoille, (1838-1911) Son. Ninth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charles_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
38) Louis Charles Marie de La Tremoille, (1863-1921) Son. Tenth Duke of Thouars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charles_Marie_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
39) Louis Jean Marie de La Tremoille, (1910-1933) Son. Twelfth Duke of Thouars. Prince of Taranto, Prince of Thalmond. Childless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jean_Marie_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
40) Charlotte Marie Clothilde de La Tremoille (1892-1971) Sister. Married Henry Florent Lamoral (1881-1967) Prince of Ligne.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_de_La_Tr%C3%A9moille
41) Prince Jean Charles de Ligne e La Tremoille (1911-2005). Son.
e La Tremoille (1892-1971)
42) Charles-Antoine Lamoral de Ligne de La Tremoille (born 1946). Son.
e La Tremoille (1892-1971)

There is a problem with this lineage, though.

ACCIDENTAL DUPLICATE OF POST # 103
 
Last edited:

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,806
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Here is another type of a claim to the eastern Roman or "Byzantine Empire.

This is an institutional type of claim. This theory is that whenever there were two or more different Roman states, and one of those Roman states was abolished by non Romans, the ruler of whatever Roman state was institutionally closest that that Roman state would inherit the rights of that abolished Roman state.

So when the western Roman empire fell, the emperor of the eastern Roman or "Byzantine" empire inherited all the right to rule in the west that had belonged to the western Roman emperor.

Obviously when Constantinople fell in 1453, the rulers of the Morea were the rightful heirs, but the two brothers couldn't agree on anything until the Morea was conquered by the Ottomans in 1460. (One brother's line was recognized in the west as the rightful imperial claimants until 1502 and there still are descendants of a daughter of that brother).

If the genealogical claims of the Palaiologos brothers are disregarded the institutional claim would then pass to the ruler of the other Roman Empire in the east, the Emperor at (not of) Trebizond. Trebizond was conquered by the Ottomans the next year in 1461.

The next closest Roman state was the Principality of Theodoro in the Crimea, conquered by the Ottomans in 1475.

Then the institutional claim to be the heir of all the Roman states in the east would pass to the ruler of the only other Roman state, the Holy Roman Empire. So Fredrick III, Emperor of the Romans, should have proclaimed himself to be the "Byzantine" Emperor of the Romans in 1453, or 1460, or 1461, or 1475. Or if Frederick III respected the claim of the Palaiologos heirs in exile, his son Maximilian I, King of the Romans, should have taken the title of "Byzantine" emperor in 1502 when the last recognized Palaiologos claimant died with no certainly known children.

And then this institutional claim to be the heir of the eastern Roman or "Byzantine" empire passed to the successors of Maximilian I who were elected Emperor of the Romans until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806.

And if anyone restores the Eastern Roman or "Byzantine" empire to existence as a functioning state, they will become the rightful "Byzantine" emperor. And if anyone restores the Holy Roman Empire as a functioning state they will become the rightful Emperor of the Romans, and also become the rightful "Byzantine" emperor since that right became attached to the office of emperor of the Holy Roman Empire sometime between 1453 and 1502.

See this link:

Heirs of the "Byzantine" Empire?

And see post number 92 on page 10 of that link for a genealogy of the genealogical heir of the Palaiologos Dynasty, and post # 98 that give two alternate lines of succession since it is uncertain which granddaughter of despot Thomas Palaiologos was older.

Heirs of the "Byzantine" Empire?

But it is certain that both of those two granddaughters were older than their sister who married Ivan III, Grand Duke of Moscow, whose descendants died out within just a few generations anyway.

And a genealogical list of the heirs of the emperors at Trebizond down to about 1739/40 is given in post number 95 on page 10 of the link.

Heirs of the "Byzantine" Empire?

There are a dozen persons who could claim to be the heirs of Emperors Frederick III and Maximilian I, but in my opinion Prince Guillaume of of Windische-Graetz, George Duke of Hohenburg, and Karl von Habsburg are the ones with the best claims.
 
Last edited:
Jan 2016
1,127
Victoria, Canada
Then the institutional claim to be the heir of all the Roman states in the east would pass to the ruler of the only other Roman state, the Holy Roman Empire. So Fredrick III, Emperor of the Romans, should have proclaimed himself to be the "Byzantine" Emperor of the Romans in 1453, or 1460, or 1461, or 1475. Or if Frederick III respected the claim of the Palaiologos heirs in exile, his son Maximilian I, King of the Romans, should have taken the title of "Byzantine" emperor in 1502 when the last recognized Palaiologos claimant died with no certainly known children.

And then this institutional claim to be the heir of the eastern Roman or "Byzantine" empire passed to the successors of Maximilian I who were elected Emperor of the Romans until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806.

And if anyone restores the Eastern Roman or "Byzantine" empire to existence as a functioning state, they will become the rightful "Byzantine" emperor. And if anyone restores the Holy Roman Empire as a functioning state they will become the rightful Emperor of the Romans, and also become the rightful "Byzantine" emperor since that right became attached to the office of emperor of the Holy Roman Empire sometime between 1453 and 1502.
The HRE was not a Roman state, if it could be considered a state at all; it was a German kingdom turned German confederation with imperial pretensions, without notable cultural, institutional, or even geographic continuities with Romania. Maximilian I ruled a Roman state as much as George III ruled a French state -- that is, in superficial title only, and by an almost completely different understanding of that title than the actual Romans or French. The closest thing to a successor state to Rome in an institutional sense after the fall of Theodoro would probably be the Republic of Venice, a long-time autonomous Roman territory formed from the leftovers of the Exarchate of Ravenna whose inhabitants were tentatively recognized (in the right circumstances) as "native Romans" by the Roman government into the late-12th century, and after that the Papal States, effectively a Roman province (the Duchy of Rome, later claiming the rest of the Exarchate) which decided to gradually leave the direct Roman orbit for its own benefit, becoming an independent theocracy, which, despite a few breaks in direct continuity, it remains today.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,806
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
The HRE was not a Roman state, if it could be considered a state at all; it was a German kingdom turned German confederation with imperial pretensions, without notable cultural, institutional, or even geographic continuities with Romania. Maximilian I ruled a Roman state as much as George III ruled a French state -- that is, in superficial title only, and by an almost completely different understanding of that title than the actual Romans or French. The closest thing to a successor state to Rome in an institutional sense after the fall of Theodoro would probably be the Republic of Venice, a long-time autonomous Roman territory formed from the leftovers of the Exarchate of Ravenna whose inhabitants were tentatively recognized (in the right circumstances) as "native Romans" by the Roman government into the late-12th century, and after that the Papal States, effectively a Roman province (the Duchy of Rome, later claiming the rest of the Exarchate) which decided to gradually leave the direct Roman orbit for its own benefit, becoming an independent theocracy, which, despite a few breaks in direct continuity, it remains today.
I suggest that you look at maps of the Roman Empire about 212 CE.


Septimius Severus - Wikipedia


N-O 200

And what happened in 212 CE? The Edict of Caracalla or Constitutio Antoniniana. Which is famous for decreeing that all free men in the Roman Empire were now Roman citizens. If all of the Latins could and did become Roman citizens, why couldn't all the Samnites and Oscans and members of other Italic tribes become Romans? If all of the members of Italic tribes could and did become Romans, why couldn't all of the Etruscans and Gauls and Greeks in Italy become Romans? If all of the Latins, Samnites, Oscans, Etruscans, Gauls and Greeks, etc. in Italy could become Romans, why couldn't all the Gauls, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, Spanish, Britons, and Germans, etc. outside of Italy in the Roman Empire become Romans?

All the Gauls, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, Spanish, Britons, and Germans, etc. outside of Italy in the Roman Empire did become Romans. According to the laws of the Roman Empire after 212 CE, you are legally obligated to consider all Gauls, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, Spanish, Britons, and Germans, etc., etc. in the Roman empire to be Romans.

In 797 CE, all the former Roman provinces in the west were considered to be still legally part of the Roman Empire, their kings hereditary governors. In 797, Emperor Constantine VII was deposed and blinded by his mother Irene, who then ruled the Roman Empire. Many persons believed that a woman could not legally rule the Roman Empire and that therefore the imperial position was legally vacant at the moment. Charlemagne, the mighty King of the Franks and of the Lombards, had himself crowned emperor on Christmas Day 800. Irene was deposed in 802 by NiKephoros, who became Emperor Nikephoros I.

And I think it would be reasonable to judge that after Irene was deposed in 802 Nikephoros I had about maybe 90 percent of the right to be considered the successor of Constantine VII and Charlemagne had about 10 percent of the right to be considered the successor of Constantine VII.

The Carolingian Empire fell into disunion after 888, and there was no emperor after Berengar I was assassinated in 924. But in 962 Otto I the Great, the mighty King of Germany and of Italy or Lombardy, was crowned Emperor in Rome, the beginning of what is considered the Holy Roman Empire proper. And in 1032 the Kingship of Arles or Burgundy was united with the position of Emperor of the Romans. And for year after year, decade after decade, century after century, the Holy Roman Emperors were the overlords of vast regions of Europe which had never been ruled by the Roman Emperors in Antiquity. The Holy Roman Emperors made large regions of Eastern Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Denmark (including southern Sweden) acknowledge their overlord ship, thus making the people in those regions acknowledge the authority of the Roman Empire for the first time in history.

Here is a link to a map of the holy Roman Empire in 1155:

Holy Roman Empire - Wikipedia

Of course it doesn't show some vassal regions like modern Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Denmark, and Scania in Sweden. But notice what a large percentage of the lands of the Holy Roman Empire in 1155 were within the borders of the Roman Empire in 212 and later decades and centuries, when the inhabitants of those regions were Roman citizens. So the descendants of those Roman citizens in the Holy Roman Empire had every right to claim to be Roman Citizens, and thus Romans, again, now that their lands were once again part of a Roman Empire.

And for year after, year, decade after decade, century after century The Holy Roman Emperors spread the ideology that the Roman Empire was the rightful government of all the world all over Catholic and Latin Europe, so scholars in Scandinavia, Scotland, Ireland, & Iceland, and other regions far beyond the current imperial borders were familiar with the concept that the Emperor was the rightful ruler of the world.

And in 1519 to 1556, the king of the Spanish kingdoms was also Emperor Charles V, who as King of the Spains claimed to be the rightful ruler of almost half of the land and oceans on Earth, from a line through Greenland and Brazil west to the western Pacific Ocean, and who was the actual ruler of an ever expanding portion of that claim. And from 1519 to 1556 the two headed eagle of the Holy Roman Empire was seen along with the coat of arms of Spain as the emblem of the ruler of those lands.

Thus from year to year, decade to decade, century to century, the rulers of the Holy Roman Empire spread and increased the fame, reputation, and glory of the Roman Empire. And so it is reasonable to believe that because they did so, from year to year, decade to decade, century to century, the Holy Roman Empire became more and more a Roman state, gaining an equal right to as the eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Empire to be considered a Roman Empire.
 
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Apr 2010
1,027
evergreen state, USA
I put together my own tree over the past several years, which likely has mistakes. But anyway, one line goes back to a daughter of one of those Byzantine emperors of the Macedonian Dynasty. She was married off to Vladimir-the-Great of Kievan Rus. It was to be his last wife and apparently caused him to become a Christian. He is also known as Saint Vladimir. They had a daughter who married a Jarl of Orkney, who was in Kiev as an exile. The jarl and his new wife returned to the Orkneys. A descendant line led to the Bruce line in Scotland and a second sibling line to England. George Washington is connected to that second line. And I seem to be a direct descendant of that Byzantine emperor via all the above lineage. But who knows if this is accurate. I also have a line going back to those kings of early northern Spain (Castile-Leon, etc.). And so forth and so on. I wonder if, whether, and how that Macedonian Dynasty of Byzantium is connected to Alexander-the-Great and Cleopatra (Ptolemy)?
 
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