help contrasting between America and WWII Germany

Rongo

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
5,683
Ohio
#21
What about systematically rounding up innocent people up and murdering them on plantation's for generations? Or lynching them? What about systematically rounding up innocent people up and forcing them onto a Bataan like March of Tears across half a continent in winter? What vicious acts did the blacks enslaved in America commit? What vicious act did the Cherokee commit other than owning land coveted by Andrew Jackson's supporters?
You're moving the bar here. The thread is about Native Americans, and now you're talking about enslaving blacks. And "murdering" them on plantations? Really?? I've visited a couple plantations, and can't remember ever seeing a gas chamber.

As for the Trail of Tears, it was a horrible crime. If you want to talk about it, fine. But it makes no sense to compare it to the systematic murder of 12 million people at the hands of the Nazis.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#22
I was coincidentally looking here. Perhaps you allow me some words. If we look to the American genocide on native Americans we should divide this temporarily, allthough it is of course difficult to date these border.
Of course genocide is allways bad, independent from the era, but I think it is not fair to judge the 18th century or the early 19th century by standards of the late 20th or 21st century, of course we shouldn't excuse them with flimsy arguments. But a lot of indian campaigns (I don't use the term war, because I don't think, that we can name the fight between the modern USA and the Indians really as war) were in the 70th, 80th and the last war was in 1915 against the Ute, if I am right. So this is quite temporarily.
 
Aug 2011
7,045
Texas
#23
Thank you. I was worried that I'd have to post this, after all the apologist nonsense in this thread so far.

"The Comanches killed the Iroqois so that makes it okay" rationale is naturally bullcrap. Genocides occurred, the Americans were responsible. This is entirely analogous to Nazi Germany - a systematic program of extermination that resulted in the annihilation of whole peoples for lebensraum for American colonists in the name of 'Manifest Destiny'. How one can claim that this is not exactly the same as what the Nazis did is utterly beyond me.
Probably because it is a stretch and blurring of history going on here. I didn't say the American & Native conflict was okay. I meant that their was never ever such a thing as a noble savage or a peaceful Indian (They fought each other for land and brutalized each other all the time); Or for that matter a treaty honoring European. Good grief!!

They wanted to make peace solely because the Americas were being flooded by Europeans and they didn't have the technology to compete. If the situation were reversed, i have no doubt what the reverse would have been!
 
Aug 2011
7,045
Texas
#24
Of course genocide is allways bad, independent from the era, but I think it is not fair to judge the 18th century or the early 19th century by standards of the late 20th or 21st century, of course we shouldn't excuse them with flimsy arguments. But a lot of indian campaigns (I don't use the term war, because I don't think, that we can name the fight between the modern USA and the Indians really as war) were in the 70th, 80th and the last war was in 1915 against the Ute, if I am right. So this is quite temporarily.
THANK YOU! In case anyone has cared to notice, i haven't excused anything! It is already hard enough researching, learning and discussing it with others without the huge distraction of 21st century morality. :deadhorse:
 
Mar 2010
1,327
Ohio
#25
Thank you. I was worried that I'd have to post this, after all the apologist nonsense in this thread so far.

"The Comanches killed the Iroqois so that makes it okay" rationale is naturally bullcrap. Genocides occurred, the Americans were responsible. This is entirely analogous to Nazi Germany - a systematic program of extermination that resulted in the annihilation of whole peoples for lebensraum for American colonists in the name of 'Manifest Destiny'. How one can claim that this is not exactly the same as what the Nazis did is utterly beyond me.
Since we didn't commit genocide, nor have a policy of genocide, how can someone not see the differences is utterly beyond me. Unless that person is letting his political opinions clout his viewpoint. It's an apples and oranges comparison and a mentally lazy one at that.

And since you want to lay this solely on our laps, perhaps you should do a bit of research on "The Right Honorable" Jeffery Amherst who gave Native Americans gifts of blankets, which was very charitable of the guy, if you ignore that the blankets were infected with smallpox.
 

Baltis

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,005
Texas
#26
American genocide on native Americans
inflammatory nonsense. There was no systematic genocide of Native Americans. There is plenty to debate about history without making such incendiary remarks.

Thanks Rongo for taking up the voice of sanity.
 
Mar 2012
256
Pataligram, Pataliputra, Palibothra, Kusumpur, Pus
#27
I meant that their was never ever such a thing as a noble savage or a peaceful Indian
So, what's the point? Manifest destiny can be justified because natives were not peaceful and noble?

From Nazis pov Slavs were not peaceful and noble too.

they didn't have the technology to compete. If the situation were reversed, i have no doubt what the reverse would have been!
Speculative history at best. I am not sure, is this some sort of justification, if not then its irrelevant.
 
Jan 2012
193
Land of 10,000 lakes
#28
You're moving the bar here. The thread is about Native Americans, and now you're talking about enslaving blacks. And "murdering" them on plantations? Really?? I've visited a couple plantations, and can't remember ever seeing a gas chamber.

As for the Trail of Tears, it was a horrible crime. If you want to talk about it, fine. But it makes no sense to compare it to the systematic murder of 12 million people at the hands of the Nazis.
So because Africans weren't Indians their treatment as subhuman, as racially inferior, as the Germans treated their victims is not open for discussion according to you Rongo? I say you are wrong. It is germane to the topic. No gas chambers on plantations you visited? Gas chambers would have been humane compared to the beatings, castrations, the selling of children, rapes, whippings and hangings that slaves were subjected to for hundreds of years. As for the Indians you don't know how many were killed. Population figures for America were as high as 50 million in 1492. Disease didn't kill all of them.Would it make you happier if only say 2 million Indians were killed in the America's from 1492 to 1880? Your argument is one of degree. It's similar to saying that someone is not a serial killer because they only killed 29 and not 50. They are still serial killers. What happened on American plantations was every bit as evil as what happened at Auschwitz. Worse because it lasted centuries.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#29
inflammatory nonsense. There was no systematic genocide of Native Americans. There is plenty to debate about history without making such incendiary remarks.

Thanks Rongo for taking up the voice of sanity.
systematic is a quite indifferent term. You really did not send them to gas chambers, that's true. But to deny a genocide is...well, at least naive.
 
Aug 2011
7,045
Texas
#30
So, what's the point? Manifest destiny can be justified because natives were not peaceful and noble?

From Nazis pov Slavs were not peaceful and noble too.
You missed my point. Natives were entirely human and driven too passion like everyone else. Did you also not note my comment on Europeans failing to honor their treaties?

Speculative history at best. I am not sure, is this some sort of justification, if not then its irrelevant.
Speculative? One of the greatest asset to trade for the Native back then besides their horse was a gun and powder. Unless some one could point out otherwise, they didn't have the now how to mass produce thunder sticks.
 

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