Here is why Hitler wasn't evil(No holocaust denial)

Dec 2017
309
Poland
Recently, I read Hitler's last speech. It's easy to find them on the Internet, but in short: Hitler said that nazim was needed so that Germany would not become communist. As far as I know, the Western countries also thought so in the 1930s and therefore they tolerated Hitler's actions silently. However, I think that the "normal" political party in Germany had more opportunities to build a truly international coalition against the USSR. And how do you think?
 
Oct 2013
12,929
Europix
Re treaty of Versailles and WW2: . The treaty was pretty vindictive. As I understand, at the time there was one voice warning about Germany's inability to pay the absurd amount of war reparations.
Yes, the treaty was pretty vindictive.

On Germany's inability to pay, at the economic issues coming out of the treaty and leading all way to Hitler, it remains debatable.

One of the reasons of the Franco-Belgian occupation of the Ruhr was that (mainly) French recovered extremely difficulty, less than Germans. The occupation might be one of the major/an important factor in triggering the deep crisis in Germany. For example.

Another thing that is pointing how the treaty is overestimated is the extent of radicalization in practically whole Europe, regardless countries being winners or loosers of the war. Confrontation between radical/extreme left and right was more the norm than the exception.

If You look at Europe in the late '30s, democratic regimes became the exception. From Bolshevik running URSS to Nazis running Germany You passed through all the spectrum of authoritarian/dictatorships: military, royal, left, right.
 
Dec 2017
309
Poland
If You look at Europe in the late '30s, democratic regimes became the exception. From Bolshevik running URSS to Nazis running Germany You passed through all the spectrum of authoritarian/dictatorships: military, royal, left, right.
That is true, but Hitler's regime began a war and a great coalition against it was formed. Even a British coalition with the Bolsheviks. Did Germany really have no other option?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,604
Portugal
That is true, but Hitler's regime began a war and a great coalition against it was formed. Even a British coalition with the Bolsheviks. Did Germany really have no other option?
A slight correction here is needed, and you are from Poland, you surely know, when the war begun, the Soviet Union was allied with Germany to invade Poland, after that remained neutral and delivered raw materials until 1941. And as it was said, most of Europe (and a good share of the world) was under autocratic or dictatorial regimes.
 
Oct 2013
12,929
Europix
... Did Germany really have no other option?
It's not what I was saying.

I was simply saying that Europe's problems we're a lot more deeper than just the harshness of the peace treaty.

Nothing says that if communism would have arrive and remain in power in Germany, Austria, Hungary, a second wouldn't have started.

Without Nazis, no Shoa. But it's not sure that it would have been cleaner: the cruelty and exactions of both sides in the Spanish civil war could be a "clue".
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
Is that true?

Yes.

Normal civil crimes such as rape, looting and murder were still considered crimes, with sever penalties if reported and tried..

What came to be called 'atrocities', such as shooting prisoners, killing civilians were tacitly accepted as part of war by all sides. All sides committed such crimes. Perpetrators were rarely punished;

Eg Allied soldiers on D Day summarily shot some German prisoners. US soldiers also summarily executed some German soldiers captured with the Liberation of some the death camps.

The Geneva convention was more about the treatment of prisoners. Even the Nazi made an effort to respect the convention a lot of the time, especially with Americans.

The Japanese did not sign the convention and made no attempt to abide by its rules. It was for breaking the rules of a convention they did not sign, that some Japanese were tried for War crimes and executed. I've always understood the allies' attitude, but also consider many if not all of those trials to be unjust..



Existing international law applied, but the crimes of the Holocaust were considered so vile that that some new statutes needed to be written, especially " crimes against humanity" did not exist prior.

I urge you to do some of research of your own.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part of The Nuremberg War Crimes statutes:

Principle VI
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace: (i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances; (ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i). (b) War crimes: Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity. (c) Crimes against humanity: Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime.​
Principle VII
Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law.​

Nuremberg principles - Wikipedia
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,364
Sydney
Not a word on those nice rather anti Nazi German generals who deliberately killed 3.5 millions soviet prisoners of war
that was not evil ?
they were their responsibility , they had command and power over them
Nazis were not involved , it was a deliberate extermination
They got away with it by mouthing platitude and dumping it all on Hitler ,
there was a joke of a trial as part of the Nuremberg High command trial
they all got away with ten years or less ,
the one fingered as the worst got life imprisonment and was freed 9 years later

.....Bastards , hypocritical Bastards
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
Not a word on those nice rather anti Nazi German generals who deliberately killed 3.5 millions soviet prisoners of war
that was not evil ?
they were their responsibility , they had command and power over them
Nazis were not involved , it was a deliberate extermination
They got away with it by mouthing platitude and dumping it all on Hitler ,
there was a joke of a trial as part of the Nuremberg High command trial
they all got away with ten years or less ,
the one fingered as the worst got life imprisonment and was freed 9 years later

.....Bastards , hypocritical Bastards
Yes, the bastards all got away with it. (apart from the few hundred who were hanged)

In truth, thousands of Nazis were never prosecuted.

One big fish who 'got way with it' was Albert Speer. He seems to have been the only Nuremberg defendant with the wit to tell the tribunal exactly what it wanted to hear . After his release he made a fortune with his book "Inside The Third Reich". It slowly came out that Speer remained an unrepentant Nazi..

Also took a long time for the Wehrmacht's active participation in the Holocaust to come out.. They actively supported the Einsatzgruppen in EasternEurope.

You l know, I had never actively thought about the logistics of killing all those Russian prisoners of War. OF COURSE the Wehrmacht was involved, up to its "Got Mit Uns" belt buckles. Puts a different light on the many Germans I met growing up. Naturally, I never met a Nazi. The Oz government would not have allowed them in. Assuming they asked.:rolleyes:

As it turns out , the Simon Wiesenthal centre has exposed a few geriatric Nazis over the last few decades . I think one was even extradited. So that's OK then.
 
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Belgarion

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,525
Australia
Yes many Germans 'got away with' their involvement in atrocities, but what is the answer? Execute or imprison every soldier, policeman and public servant? I recall after the East/West German reunification some people were calling for the trial and imprisonment of all members of the East German secret police and security forces. It was decided that a line had to be drawn under most of the activites of the old East German regime to allow the country to truly unite and move on.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
Yes many Germans 'got away with' their involvement in atrocities, but what is the answer? Execute or imprison every soldier, policeman and public servant? I recall after the East/West German reunification some people were calling for the trial and imprisonment of all members of the East German secret police and security forces. It was decided that a line had to be drawn under most of the activites of the old East German regime to allow the country to truly unite and move on.
Exactly. That question has bene raised many times since the end of WW 2., and remains controversial.

The problem of collective guilt is a controversial one. I'm slightly mollified by Germany's apparent collective guilt even today.

I've read a few books about The Holocaust , before, during and after. Below are two I found especially interesting;

'Hitler's Willing Executioners' Ordinary Germans And The Holocaust' By Daniel Goldhagen made me think about it in a different way.

Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust is a 1996 book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen, in which he argues that the vast majority of ordinary Germans were "willing executioners" in the Holocaust because of a unique and virulent "eliminationist antisemitism" in German political culture which had developed in the preceding centuries. Goldhagen argues that eliminationist antisemitism was the cornerstone of German national identity, was unique to Germany, and because of it ordinary German conscripts killed Jews willingly. Goldhagen asserts that this mentality grew out of medieval attitudes rooted in religion and was later secularized.
The book challenges several common ideas about the Holocaust that Goldhagen believes to be myths. These "myths" include the idea that most Germans did not know about the Holocaust; that only the SS, and not average members of the Wehrmacht, participated in murdering Jews; and that genocidal antisemitism was a uniquely Nazi ideology without historical antecedents.

Hitler's Willing Executioners - Wikipedia

'
The Brigade' by Howard Blum, is about groups of Jews wandering around Europe killing Nazis they considered guilty. I don't usually support vigilante or ex judicial justice, but I really can't condemn those people . Nor the unofficially official Mossad death squad which tracked down and killed terrorist involved in the Munich Olympic Games Massacre.


Blum (The Gold of Exodus, 1998, etc.) writes more like an omniscient author of fiction than as a historian, and with good reason. In chronicling this little-known niche of WWII, the former New York Times journalist interviewed the living members of His Majesty’s Jewish Brigade, a Jewish cadre from British-controlled Palestine who fought with honor in Italy at the close of the war. While many of his scenes are worthy of a blockbuster movie—as when Peltz, a tough-as-nails brigade member, reconnoiters a German encampment in the dead of night—the deeper story lies in the emotions these Jews felt about their relation to the Holocaust. Many of them, recalling families slaughtered in concentration camps, saw their arrival in Germany in 1945 as payback time.
 

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