Hindu God Ganesha is from Greeks ?

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,352
New Delhi, India
#31
I see a serpent cap on Demetrius' head.
IMHO, Ganesha must have been a local God in some part of India (elephants were spread over a large area in India in ancient times). Then, in time, he became Shiva and Parvati's son. BG Tilak popularised Ganesha public worship in Mahrashtra. Since then, his worship is increasing in India in leaps and bounds (my son is a great Ganesha devotee. We have at least 20 Ganesha sculptures and images in our house. Look anywhere and you would be saying hello to Ganesha. He picked that up when he was in Mumbai for some time). :D
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
2,182
Australia
#32
I see a serpent cap on Demetrius' head.
Here you go then ;


1541367422513.png

IMHO, Ganesha must have been a local God in some part of India (elephants were spread over a large area in India in ancient times). Then, in time, he became Shiva and Parvati's son. BG Tilak popularised Ganesha public worship in Mahrashtra. Since then, his worship is increasing in India in leaps and bounds (my son is a great Ganesha devotee. We have at least 20 Ganesha sculptures and images in our house. Look anywhere and you would be saying hello to Ganesha. He picked that up when he was in Mumbai for some time). :D
Relatively recent increase in local popularity does not detract from or indicate an origin though.

I would say more depended on depictions of Ganesha in sculpture , particularly on temples. Is there any evidence of this, pre-Greek, in India ?
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
2,984
USA
#34
There is a common practice, particularly among the lunatic fringe to equate correlation with causality. Don't know if Ganesh is pure Indian,or if his worship was influenced by the Greeks. I think it's unlikely; I can't see any reason. But who knows.

Similar great ideas have arisen in different parts of the world at the same time many times. my favourite example is around 600bce, there were the pre Socratic Greek philosophers. In India there was the Buddha, in China there was Confucius.

@Aatreya; It is my observation that Hinduism is easily the most inclusive of all world religion. Who makes the judgement about exactly who is a devout Hindu and who is not? You? From whence did you receive the authority?
You are perhaps barking up the wrong tree. Why do you think I decided who was a devout Hindu and who is not?
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
2,182
Australia
#35
I see .... you have cropped the photograph to remove most of the elephant. Do you really think such tactics will work here ?

But let us pretend and humour you for a moment ..... why is your 'serpent' sitting on an elephants trunk , and why i 'serpent''s skin so wrinkly ?

NEVER have I seen a snakes skin wrinkle like that, when it bends and curves its body ....... have you ?


1541449689260.png



1541449737613.png


no wrinkles ^ ....... however ;

1541449805598.png

No Aupy ..... that ^ is NOT a snake .

Do you see these 'snakes' often ?


1541449960890.png


Now, what can one say about this - Pre-Greek or Post-Greek?

or
or
It doesnt answer my question .

I will ask it again : " is there any evidence of Ganesha in Indian Architecture or sculpture, pre- Greek contact ?

(Its a pretty simple question )
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,352
New Delhi, India
#36
We did not have much architecture before Greeks. What we had is evident in the images I have uploaded. That was enough for us as the 'ling', 'symbol'. It is enough for us even now when we go to Vaishno Devi pilgrimage, just an outcrop of rock. One cannot expect perfect reproduction in minting of coins in Demetrius' time, but I do not insist that it was a snake. It may have been an elephant's trunk. Perhaps Demetrius fancied elephnts. But is there any mention of an elephant God in Greek mythology?
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
2,984
USA
#37
We did not have much architecture before Greeks. What we had is evident in the images I have uploaded. That was enough for us as the 'ling', 'symbol'. It is enough for us even now when we go to Vaishno Devi pilgrimage, just an outcrop of rock. One cannot expect perfect reproduction in minting of coins in Demetrius' time, but I do not insist that it was a snake. It may have been an elephant's trunk. Perhaps Demetrius fancied elephnts. But is there any mention of an elephant God in Greek mythology?
Is that the Greek God they first saw in India?
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,352
New Delhi, India
#38
Demetrius may have become a Ganesha devotee like my son, Vighnaharta (Remover of all troubles). Like Heliodorus, who was a devotee of Lord Vishnu. That seems more probable.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
2,182
Australia
#39
We did not have much architecture before Greeks.
The question was not if India had much architecture before the Greeks came, it was if India's architecture showed depictions of Ganesha before the Greeks came .

- but I dont really expect you to answer the question without some diversion like this ... as you cant seem to help doing it .

maybe one day you will answer the question directly ? For now, I will have to take your answer as a 'no' then - no, India does not have depictions of Gensha in its architecture before the arrival of Greeks .
What we had is evident in the images I have uploaded. That was enough for us as the 'ling', 'symbol'. It is enough for us even now when we go to Vaishno Devi pilgrimage, just an outcrop of rock
It is not a question of "this is enough for us" ... typically Indian response regarding historical questions .... it an historical issue, not a personal one all tied up in cultural identity .

. One cannot expect perfect reproduction in minting of coins in Demetrius' time, but I do not insist that it was a snake. It may have been an elephant's trunk. Perhaps Demetrius fancied elephnts. But is there any mention of an elephant God in Greek mythology?
There does not have to be mention of an Elephant God in Greek mythology for a person with a headress of an elephant to eventually become a God with an elephant's head in another culture.

It is not an unknown thing in Indian culture . Look at Alexander the Great ;

" Somewhere in the valley of the river Kabul, a group of frightened rajas came to Alexander, saying that they had heard stories about visiting gods, but had never seen a deity themselves, which was why they had come to submit themselves to Alexander. It is hard to reconstruct what lies behind this incident, but it is likely that the Indian leaders recognized the conqueror as avatar of Vishnu."

Alexander's Self-Deification - Livius
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,352
New Delhi, India
#40
For now, I will have to take your answer as a 'no' then - no, India does not have depictions of Gensha in its architecture before the arrival of Greeks.
If you disregard that for Hindus even a rock outcrop can assume the importance of a "swayambhu" apperance.
Swayambhu: Appearance because God willed it so, not created by a human.
.. it an historical issue, not a personal one all tied up in cultural identity.
When a historical answer is not available, we make the best guess.
.. a person with a head-dress of an elephant to eventually become a God with an elephant's head in another culture.
Possible, but that also is a guess. The Rajahs may have tried to humor Alex by comparing him to a deity but was that accepted by people and mythology. I do not think Demetrius I of Bactria was ever that important for India. He lasted for 20 years (200-180 BC) and ruled Taxila with a posible raid upto Pataliputra. If Alex was not deified, what chances would Demetrius will have? Demetrius was sure enamored of elephants. Even Menander's (I Soter) coins depict elephant.

"Those who came after Alexander went to the Ganges and Pataliputra." (Strabo, 63 BC - 24 AD, XV.698)

 
Last edited:

Similar History Discussions