History Mysteries - traces of nicotine, coca found in Egyptian mummy etc.

Jul 2017
247
Neverland
There are a number of recent discoveries in recent time, that question the notion that Columbus might have been the first outsider to reach the shores of the New World.

Are there or were there elephants in the Americas ? No ?
Think again !

We have pottery from the Mayas, Incas and others in the Americas that show images of elephants. Now, we all know these giants of the animal world were not present in the New World. And yet.. the Indians of the Americas must have seen elephants.

We have images of these large animals from Palenque, Montezuma Valley, other locations in Mexico. We also have Vai scripts from the Mali Empire of West Africa in Flora Vista- Mexico discovered in 1910.

In 1310-1315 from the shores of the Mali Empire with their world famous cultural and religious center Timbuktu, 2 expeditions.The first departing with 200 ships and the second with 2000 ships on a voyage around the World.

The second expedition led by their king Mensa Abubakari Keita II left in 1311 and neither expedition made it back - not a single ship.Al were presumed lost and dead till 1528.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

That same year the Spanish explorer Cabeza de Vaca reached New Mexico and found among the red Indians a...Black group of Indians called Mendica tribe. The Mandica people of Mali did establish the Mali Empire.When the Malians left in 1311 they carried elephants and other animals on their voyage.


NICOTINE AND COCA FOUND ON AN ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MUMMY

A few years ago a group of German scientists discovered substances on a mummy- Lady Henut Taui of the ruling class, while performing a DNA test on it. The furor among academia was such, that another DNA test was conducted with the same results.

Nicotine and coca only grew in the Americas till its "discovery" by Christopher Columbus. How is it that those substances were known in Egypt, were ancient Egyptians criss crossing the Ocean 4000 years ago ?


6 Discoveries that Show the Pre-Columbian Americas Traded Across the Oceans | Ancient Origins


WHITE PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE IN NORTH AMERICA

The American Indian Tribe of Cherokees have their Myths, about White people called...MOON EYED PEOPLE of the Appalachian region in the USA.
While coming to the Southern States of North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia the Cherokees met these mysterious Caucasians with blue eyes, blond hair.

The Moon Eyed People had a very poor vision during the day, but excellent vision at night. So, the Cherokees attacked the Whites and expelled them from their ancient lands.All we have now are a few ruins in Appalchia of fortifications belonging to the Moon Eyed People and a few artifacts kept in the Cherokee County Historical Museum of Murphy - North Carolina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-eyed_people

https://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/51476
 
Mar 2017
878
Colorado
There are a number of recent discoveries in recent time, that question the notion that Columbus might have been the first outsider to reach the shores of the New World.

Are there or were there elephants in the Americas ? No ?
Think again !

We have pottery from the Mayas, Incas and others in the Americas that show images of elephants. Now, we all know these giants of the animal world were not present in the New World. And yet.. the Indians of the Americas must have seen elephants.

We have images of these large animals from Palenque, Montezuma Valley, other locations in Mexico. We also have Vai scripts from the Mali Empire of West Africa in Flora Vista- Mexico discovered in 1910.

In 1310-1315 from the shores of the Mali Empire with their world famous cultural and religious center Timbuktu, 2 expeditions.The first departing with 200 ships and the second with 2000 ships on a voyage around the World.

The second expedition led by their king Mensa Abubakari Keita II left in 1311 and neither expedition made it back - not a single ship.Al were presumed lost and dead till 1528.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire

That same year the Spanish explorer Cabeza de Vaca reached New Mexico and found among the red Indians a...Black group of Indians called Mendica tribe. The Mandica people of Mali did establish the Mali Empire.When the Malians left in 1311 they carried elephants and other animals on their voyage.


NICOTINE AND COCA FOUND ON AN ANCIENT EGYPTIAN MUMMY

A few years ago a group of German scientists discovered substances on a mummy- Lady Henut Taui of the ruling class, while performing a DNA test on it. The furor among academia was such, that another DNA test was conducted with the same results.

Nicotine and coca only grew in the Americas till its "discovery" by Christopher Columbus. How is it that those substances were known in Egypt, were ancient Egyptians criss crossing the Ocean 4000 years ago ?


6 Discoveries that Show the Pre-Columbian Americas Traded Across the Oceans | Ancient Origins


WHITE PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE IN NORTH AMERICA

The American Indian Tribe of Cherokees have their Myths, about White people called...MOON EYED PEOPLE of the Appalachian region in the USA.
While coming to the Southern States of North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia the Cherokees met these mysterious Caucasians with blue eyes, blond hair.

The Moon Eyed People had a very poor vision during the day, but excellent vision at night. So, the Cherokees attacked the Whites and expelled them from their ancient lands.All we have now are a few ruins in Appalchia of fortifications belonging to the Moon Eyed People and a few artifacts kept in the Cherokee County Historical Museum of Murphy - North Carolina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-eyed_people

https://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/51476
There's another thread on this titled: "Pre-Columbian Trade to/from the New World" on just this topic. You have some different examples (coca is covered pretty extensively).

The summary:
There are lots of artifacts that just don't fit the notion that the New World had no contact with the Old World until Columbus. A separate branch of pre-Columbian archaeology is facing the huge pile of anomalous facts, trying to make sense of it.

What we're missing is an archaeological story. Solid hard evidence of a complete trade transfer: stuff started here (evidence), stuff traveled this way (evidence), stuff arrived here (evidence) ... with no other reasonable simple explanation.

I'll paraphrase a post from over there:
If you find a Roman coin in your backyard, it means nothing. If you find a Roman coin in the grave of a 16th century plague victim, it needs some explaining. If you find a box of coins in the wall of a house in Pompeii, it's part of a whole story about the family that lived there.

In the old days, archaeology was about: "Oh, look! A mummy! That's neat..."
NOW, it's all about context: "The person was a worker at Deir el-Medina, who brewed his own beer and appeared to be a painter ...."

We really don't have good context to explain ... what's really unexplained without more evidence.
---
BTW:
I am not a skeptic. I like to BELIEVE Thor Heyerdahl and his "Ra" and "Kon Tiki" voyages were actually correct in their hypothesis. There's just no compelling evidence ... yet.

However, a skeptic could easily say "there were plenty of elephants in the New World ... in the Ice Age ... and they might've been around as late as 7000 BCE ... at which time there were plenty of people in the New World, too ... maybe they survived in art."

Almost forgot: the cocaine mummies would place New World contact at 1600 BCE.
 
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Jul 2017
247
Neverland
There's another thread on this titled: "Pre-Columbian Trade to/from the New World" on just this topic. You have some different examples (coca is covered pretty extensively).

The summary:
There are lots of artifacts that just don't fit the notion that the New World had no contact with the Old World until Columbus. A separate branch of pre-Columbian archaeology is facing the huge pile of anomalous facts, trying to make sense of it.

What we're missing is an archaeological story. Solid hard evidence of a complete trade transfer: stuff started here (evidence), stuff traveled this way (evidence), stuff arrived here (evidence) ... with no other reasonable simple explanation.

I'll paraphrase a post from over there:
If you find a Roman coin in your backyard, it means nothing. If you find a Roman coin in the grave of a 16th century plague victim, it needs some explaining. If you find a box of coins in the wall of a house in Pompeii, it's part of a whole story about the family that lived there.

In the old days, archaeology was about: "Oh, look! A mummy! That's neat..."
NOW, it's all about context: "The person was a worker at Deir el-Medina, who brewed his own beer and appeared to be a painter ...."

We really don't have good context to explain ... what's really unexplained without more evidence.
---
BTW:
I am not a skeptic. I like to BELIEVE Thor Heyerdahl and his "Ra" and "Kon Tiki" voyages were actually correct in their hypothesis. There's just no compelling evidence ... yet.

However, a skeptic could easily say "there were plenty of elephants in the New World ... in the Ice Age ... and they might've been around as late as 7000 BCE ... at which time there were plenty of people in the New World, too ... maybe they survived in art."

Almost forgot: the cocaine mummies would place New World contact at 1600 BCE.

Your logical faculties are on the right path. Skepticism is a healthy way to get to the truth.Without hard evidence.ie archaeology, we are stuck in the netherworld of myth and saga.

I did touch on the subject in Historum - Ancient History Section, with a thread from last week Mysterious White People in China.It's still there on pg.1
Had to provide links to the crop of skeptics on the subject.

The fact that we have American Indians in the New World is evidence all of itself - there were people in the Americas before Columbus - the Indians, who came from the land bridge connecting Far East Asia with Alaska some 10000 - 12000 years ago.

It's amazing there were Whites in the New World too, also an ancient people, called 'Moon Eyed People''. Cherokees and Cree Indians describe them as folks of short stature with a poor day vision, and excellent eyesight during nights.

We now have artifacts in a North Carolina Museum from them, along with ruins of their fortresses.Too add to the mixture of people that might have visited the Americas well before Columbus did, I will provide ancient Chinese maps of their mariners, that might have visited the Continent.

It's a matter of speculation the Chinese visited the New World as far back as 3300 years ago. The last recorded Chinese expedidition is some 70-80 years before Columbus.

Chinese Map of the World

Some more maps

Early New World Maps | ancient america

Lab test to prove ancient Chinese map is authentic

NZ Help to Date Ancient Chinese Map

Wikipedia on the multiple claims of 'pre-Columbus contacts'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,459
Portugal
I did touch on the subject in Historum - Ancient History Section, with a thread from last week Mysterious White People in China.It's still there on pg.1
Had to provide links to the crop of skeptics on the subject.
Hello Bleda, well… thank you for calling me skeptic about the theme, or the salad of themes that you mentioned in that thread. I am always skeptic when people in history advance ideas without sources and I am still waiting for the sources that you claimed that you had. You not only not showed those sources but you also induced me to error and to… a site with Bilbo Baggins houses.

Wikipedia on the multiple claims of 'pre-Columbus contacts'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories
Claims and theories, the Wikipedia article’s title is “Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact theories”, are not facts, are not historical facts. These themes are often debated here and some months I with some members in a thread listed many of those theories. To the date the only pre-Columbian contacted proved between America and the other continents, besides the original colonization trough the Bering Strait, probably in several human waves, was the one made by the Norse. Unfortunately this theme is quite open to wild guesses, and unsubstantiated theories.

One thing is the existence of a fact that many don’t know how to explain, although there are disputable theories: for instance the existence of the coca in Egyptian mummies; other is to pick a source and try to give it a meaning or an interpretation that is not clear, just to satisfy a theory than by other means would be unsubstantiated. The fact that in the same post you mention the a naval expedition sent from Mali, that we don’t know where it went or where it ended, the “Egyptian” coca, the Chinese theory and the myths around the “Moon Eyed People”, saying or implying that they are white people that came from Europe only shows that. All this has a name, and it is speculative history.

That's awesome! Thanks!

Didn't know about that one ...
To see other side of the map story, you can go to a small National Geographic article:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0123_060123_chinese_map.html

There are many sites in the net about history, and speculative history.
 
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Jul 2017
247
Neverland
Hello Bleda, well… thank you for calling me skeptic about the theme, or the salad of themes that you mentioned in that thread. I am always skeptic when people in history advance ideas without sources and I am still waiting for the sources that you claimed that you had. You not only not showed those sources but you also induced me to error and to… a site with Bilbo Baggins houses.



Claims and theories, the Wikipedia article’s title is “Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact theories”, are not facts, are not historical facts. These themes are often debated here and some months I with some members in a thread listed many of those theories. To the date the only pre-Columbian contacted proved between America and the other continents, besides the original colonization trough the Bering Strait, probably in several human waves, was the one made by the Norse. Unfortunately this theme is quite open to wild guesses, and unsubstantiated theories.

One thing is the existence of a fact that many don’t know how to explain, although there are disputable theories: for instance the existence of the coca in Egyptian mummies; other is to pick a source and try to give it a meaning or an interpretation that is not clear, just to satisfy a theory than by other means would be unsubstantiated. The fact that in the same post you mention the a naval expedition sent from Mali, that we don’t know where it went or where it ended, the “Egyptian” coca, the Chinese theory and the myths around the “Moon Eyed People”, saying or implying that they are white people that came from Europe only shows that. All this has a name, and it is speculative history.



To see other side of the map story, you can go to a small National Geographic article:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0123_060123_chinese_map.html

There are many sites in the net about history, and speculative history.

When we have archaeological finds, we no longer talk of alternative history and myths anymore.In this case we have a Mystery - statues, inscriptions.
All "sources" that you're talking about were presented - in the case of the moon eyed people, the museum where archaeological finds are kept in North Carolina.

You also can see Indian pottery with images of elephants, although these animals are non existent in the Americas.Explanation and sourcing were presented. The fact that you're a naysayer is not my problem.

DNA testing confirming nicotine and coca in an Egyptian mummy done, so you cah keep denying. Question is how those substances found their way to ancient Egypt, when they were grown only in the Americas.

Ancient Chinese maps dated and confirmed also to be genuine. Deny all you want. Then we have to decide who came to America first - Chinese, Polynesians, Malians or Vikings...oh forgot about them. The Norse discovered Iceland, Greenland and had a settlement in Vinland - Newfoundland- Canada.

Then we know of one person that visited th

e New World 500 years before Columbus did. His name was Leif Erikson.
All there is to know is, how many did discover America before Columbus did !?

Did I mention about the Malian inscriptions found in Brazil ?

Does a Mysterious Manuscript Describe a Forgotten Malian Mausoleum in Brazil? | Ancient Origins
 
Mar 2017
878
Colorado
To see other side of the map story, you can go to a small National Geographic article:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0123_060123_chinese_map.html

There are many sites in the net about history, and speculative history.
... and thank YOU.

There's a lot of this kind of thing around. There's a crown, sceptre, & orb in a museum in Austria (you can visit to museum site) that provenance says "used by Holy Roman Emperors." There's also the "Holy Lance" (let's not argue about what it actually is), also part of the Holy Roman jewels.

You can visit sites that talk about how the crown in the display was worn by Charlemagne. It's simply not true. Charlemagne's crown was around for a few 100 yrs, improved, had jewels added, etc. ... and was destroyed in the French revolution ... all gone. There are History/Discovery channel episodes that show "Charlemagne's" crown. The very real story of Gen George Patton rescuing the items from Nuremberg castle (from Hitler) is true, but the provenance is a bit inflated. It SOUNDS better to say Charlemagne wore it.

The Holy Lance has been dated to about 700 ACE. It is "said" Charlemagne carried it into battle. It could have happened timewise, but there is no evidence. Plenty of portraits with the crown/orb/sceptre ... none with the lance. There *IS* a picture of a crusader carrying it on horseback. He "borrowed" it from the king?

There's really a gripping history special of the German translator who discovered where Hitler stashed a ton of museum treasures when he stole them from Austria. All the people, all the events are true ... but the provenance they threw in to make the items more significant/mystical is nonsense. It was titled "Spear of Destiny", I think.

I'm pretty sure the Austrian museum's site even mentions "Charlemagne carried the lance" ... but they might have added a hedge like "legend says".


My point of all this is that you can even go to the site of a museum, and the information isn't necessarily correct. The museum doesn't tell the story of their current crown, but you can figure it out from the dates they provide.
 
Mar 2017
878
Colorado
DNA testing confirming nicotine and coca in an Egyptian mummy done, so you cah keep denying. Question is how those substances found their way to ancient Egypt, when they were grown only in the Americas.
I don't think Tulius was denying the evidence. I think he was saying it's "unexplained" ... which I agree with.

I've gone around and around with this particular topic. Cocaine is present in the mummies. Done. This has been reproduced in scientific labs in multiple countries.

Just scroll down to the references in this article (note the .edu site):
American Drugs in Egyptian Mummies

I can speculate an easy answer to presence of New World chemicals in the Old World. That's it: speculation. No evidence.

I find it *VERY* interesting that researchers say "there was probably a tobacco plant in Africa which is now extinct." An easy, also unprovable explanation. NO ONE says this about coca. There's an entire research paper from Germany that describes why it was impossible for coca to ever grow in the New World.

It's present in mummies (1/2 dozen or so). It never grew in Old World. ... unexplained
 
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Jul 2017
247
Neverland
We don't need speculation, but hard core evidence.Let's say we're in school and have an exam on who discovered America.
Common sense is to answer Columbus and we both pass the test. Right ?

But, what, if there was another European that discovered the New World 500 years before Columbus did ? Even, if he did, would you write down his name and fail the test ?

And yet, there was another one that really did arrive in the New World first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson

Isn't that hard to hop over from Iceland/also a New World country/ to Greenland and then drop by in Arctic Canada for a hunt or just to establish a Norse settlement in Vinland- Newfoundland ?!

Take a look to the West and especially the very short distance in between Alaska and Russia. Don't need an expedition, a simple row boat is enough to jump over from one Continent to the other. It's even easier than reaching the Americas from the East, isn't it !?

Well, let me speculate myself too...I bet you each summer at least a few dozen fishermen and hunters from the Russian side ventured into Alaska to hunt or just take a stroll thru the frozen wilderness...the Mongolic eskimos did it.

It's not that simple with the cocaine and the cigars Lady Henut Taui/the mummy/ had a good use of...wine and beer maybe. Bet you, that cat had a bunch of boyfriends too...the good life. Kidding !

The elephants in the Americas ? We all studied the theories of possibilities in school.
It is well known, that the Malian expeditions sent at least 1200 ships to the West from West Africa.The Equatorial Current would have carried them over to the New World.

Good chance is a few ships of Africans arrived in the Americas all in one piece along with their elephants.One such group was found by the Spanish in today's New Mexico.
Other ships might have strayed South to Central America, where the Indians of Guatemala also painted images of elephants on their pottery.

The question with the short statured 'moon eyed people" that Cherokees and Cree Indians defeated and expelled from their homes in Appalachia/ is something else.We have a museum in North Carolina holding archaeological relics from them, plus there are ruins of their fortresses in Tennessee and North Carolina.They are reputed to have being with poor daytime vision and excellent night eyesight...just like bats and owls.

The moon eyed people according to descriptions by the Indians were blond or light brown haired , with blue eyes. Bet another group of Indians finished them off for good, before the Spanish, English, Portuguese, French and Dutch came to settle the Americas.
 
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