History of Indian Obsession with Fair Skin

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,828
USA
For once I agree with Aatreya. Varna is not caste, it is a group, a group of castes. And Jati means caste. A sub-caste would be like Kashmiri brahmin, Bengali brahmin, Sarayuvparee brahmin, Kanyakubja brahmin, Gaur brahmin, Maithil brahmin, Goan brahmin, Tamil brahmin, Andhra brahmin, Odia brahmin, Gujarati brahmin, Rajasthani brahmin, Deshastha, Chitpavan and so on and so forth.
Castes (endogamous groups) are defined in Manusmrithi, and there are only four of them. Jatis (Sub-castes) developed later.
The different Brahmins you have noted are not Jatis, but based on where they are located geographically. There are Jatis within the Brahmin groups, based on the worship rituals they perform, and each are endogamous. This varies based on locality.
 

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,828
USA
Are clergy, noblemen, warriors, etc.. castes? Again jAti is caste, varNa is division of labor.
Not according to Manusmrithi, where only four castes noted, and they are to be endogamous. I doubt Jatis are even mentioned in Manusmrithi.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,812
New Delhi, India
Castes (endogamous groups) are defined in Manusmrithi, and there are only four of them. Jatis (Sub-castes) developed later.
The different Brahmins you have noted are not Jatis, but based on where they are located geographically. There are Jatis within the Brahmin groups, based on the worship rituals they perform, and each are endogamous. This varies based on locality.
* Again, you are giving your definition of things. An endogamous group is like Maithil Brahmin. They used to marry only in their own caste (of course, things are now changing. I hve heard of a beautiful Maithil brahmin girl who may suit my grandson who is 16). But whether Kashmiri or Maithil we belong to the 'brahmin' varna.
* Jatis did not develop later. They were the social system indigenous to India. What happened during the assimilation of Aryans is that the all the smaller boxes were put in four large boxes according to their professions. Varna did not mean profession, it meant the inclination of a person to do a particular kind of work, and at one time this system was flexible.
* You are right here. These various groups are Jatis and the varna of all of them is brahmin.
* Again, when the number 4 is mentioned, then they are talking of Varna and not jatis, becuse the jatis number in thousands.
Are you trying to teach Hinduism to Hindus? Is not that a bit funny? Or it is just that that it takes you longer to understand things? :D
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,446
Australia
It all started during the last days of the one-year Prime Ministership of Vishwanath Pratap Singh (Dec. 89 - Nov. 90). That was a strategy to save his prime ministership. He wanted the support of particular sections of society. He adopted a commission report (Mandal Commiswsion) that was lying with the Government for quite some time.It did not save his prime ministership but India got stuck up with the facilities granted to more sections of the society. These facilities have continued to grow with time and more and more people who were not counted as 'Backward' want inclusion in the list. These sections include Gujarat Patels, Haryana Jats and Marathas. Most of them are prosperous (sometimes quite rich) and hardly require support.

Kadi, there are not much surveys. The actions are influenced by what the government in power wants to achieve and how many votes that action can bring for the ruling party.
Yes, but I meant , why use the term 'backward' ? ? ? 'Disadvantaged' .... that I could understand .

A good idea to get support from ' particular sections of society.' , but calling them backward seems to defeat his purpose .... or they accepted it (for the benefits) begrudgingly .
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,446
Australia
Are clergy, noblemen, warriors, etc.. castes? Again jAti is caste, varNa is division of labor.
Yes. This also agrees with the Zoroastrian concept ;

" King Jamshid developed the concept of specialized professions. He instituted the four main professional guilds of priests and learned (athravan), nobles and warriors (rathestaran), farmers (vasteryosan), and artisans (hutokhshan)."

Vedic ; Varna.

Avestan ; Vara

Root ? in Avestan ; Vara ( 'settlement' ) .

Any significance ?
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,446
Australia
That is an incorrect way for translating caste names into English. If Jati is Caste, what would be the translation for Varna?
.... i.
'Enclosure' .... 'settlement' ? ( of people of a certain profession ) - see my post above .
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,446
Australia
Castes (endogamous groups) are defined in Manusmrithi, and there are only four of them. Jatis (Sub-castes) developed later.
The different Brahmins you have noted are not Jatis, but based on where they are located geographically. There are Jatis within the Brahmin groups, based on the worship rituals they perform, and each are endogamous. This varies based on locality.
see above .
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,446
Australia
* Again, you are giving your definition of things. An endogamous group is like Maithil Brahmin. They used to marry only in their own caste (of course, things are now changing. I hve heard of a beautiful Maithil brahmin girl who may suit my grandson who is 16). But whether Kashmiri or Maithil we belong to the 'brahmin' varna.
* Jatis did not develop later. They were the social system indigenous to India. What happened during the assimilation of Aryans is that the all the smaller boxes were put in four large boxes according to their professions. Varna did not mean profession, it meant the inclination of a person to do a particular kind of work, and at one time this system was flexible.
Yes. It was always (well, mostly ) flexible in Zoroastrianism .

Your point about " the inclination of a person to do a particular kind of work" is interesting . I see it more significant than 'inclination' - perhaps even khvarenah ? ( The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life [the Middle Persian Pahlavi rending of khvarenah is khvesh-kari meaning own-work or own-purpose (in keeping with Divine purpose i.e. the higher calling)].

* You are right here. These various groups are Jatis and the varna of all of them is brahmin.
* Again, when the number 4 is mentioned, then they are talking of Varna and not jatis, becuse the jatis number in thousands.
Are you trying to teach Hinduism to Hindus? Is not that a bit funny? Or it is just that that it takes you longer to understand things? :D
When ... postulating Hindu concepts to Hindus it is best to punctuate with question marks .

OH ! I mean when postulating Hindu concepts to Hindus IS IT best to punctuate with question marks ? :)
 
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