History of the Ostsiedlung

Apr 2014
5
Virginia
#1
In the 1998 book, The Northern Crusades, the author stated that almost none of the histories of the 12th through the 14th centuries' colonizers of Pomerania & Prussia are printed in any languages but German, Polish or Russian.


If I wanted to find out about a Friesian influx of immigrants in 1236--their motives, any equivalent to a 13th-Century "Oregon trail," through areas such as Mecklenburg; or events from 1200 c.e. through 1500 c.e. that brought in high volumes of foreign merchants to join the Hanseatic fleets of Stettin or Danzig.


Ideally, this would be full-text published works, or 4-5 chapters within a more general history of Northern Europe of the period. Or open-access specialty history academic journals, that are not going to cost $ 75 per access.

Anything to recommend? The books can be fairly academic/scholarly and "dry" or technical. Just looking for histories of what might have brought my ancestors into Pomerania as emigrants from the Alps or from Zeeland/West Frisia... Are these types of titles only to be found from academics writing between the 1880s and 1937?? Recent books would be better, but I'll use Allibris for out-of-print older books
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#2
In the 1998 book, The Northern Crusades, the author stated that almost none of the histories of the 12th through the 14th centuries' colonizers of Pomerania & Prussia are printed in any languages but German, Polish or Russian.


If I wanted to find out about a Friesian influx of immigrants in 1236--their motives, any equivalent to a 13th-Century "Oregon trail," through areas such as Mecklenburg; or events from 1200 c.e. through 1500 c.e. that brought in high volumes of foreign merchants to join the Hanseatic fleets of Stettin or Danzig.


Ideally, this would be full-text published works, or 4-5 chapters within a more general history of Northern Europe of the period. Or open-access specialty history academic journals, that are not going to cost $ 75 per access.

Anything to recommend? The books can be fairly academic/scholarly and "dry" or technical. Just looking for histories of what might have brought my ancestors into Pomerania as emigrants from the Alps or from Zeeland/West Frisia... Are these types of titles only to be found from academics writing between the 1880s and 1937?? Recent books would be better, but I'll use Allibris for out-of-print older books
do you know exactly when your ancestors came from Zeeland or the Alps?
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#3

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#4
......

Also Henry the Bearded, when he invited German settlers to Silesia, initially ordered that they should settle in separate settlements from Poles ("segregatim a Polonis"), in order to prevent ethnic conflicts.
...or heinrich didn't want to mix people with different rights!

But maybe a better idea would be to encourage co-existence within the same settlements instead. It seems neither his father nor he had problems with mixing ethnicities! :)

As we know today immigrants who settle in their own communities do not integrate.
you shouldn't mix the past with the presence, "Peter".
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#5
...
Per Piskorski & Leśniewska that was initially the case too, but eventually Poles & Czechs were also granted German Law.
They also write that people of different ethnicity who settled in a settlement with given law, were adopting that law too.
I suppose the difference is, that the ruler can decide which community and its people get what right.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#6
As for Germanization - he mentions that, generally, Slavic peasants became Germanized in areas where the clergy and nobility were mostly German-speaking. On ther other hand, in areas where most of the clergy and nobility were Slavic-speaking, those were Germans who became Slavicized. That was a rule, it doesn't mean that there were no exceptions.

So it seems that the process was going "from top to bottom" of the society.
What do you mean with "from top to bottom"? Do you mean forced assimilation? Assimilation was a slowly process, it lasted several centuries to turn german citizens into Polish ones and in Pommeria or Silrsia it lasted centuries to turn Poles into Germans. Sorbs are meanwhile living for 1000 years and more under German rulre and are still Slavs.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
#7
But such a long-lasting assimilation, as you quote Piskorski correct, is rather evidence for social processes rather than forced assimilation. We spoke about it, in your thread about Schleswig-Holstein.
 
Jan 2014
1,989
Regnum Francorum (orientalium) / Germany
#8
Why do you think that 7-10 generations is "long-lasting", especially for times before public education and widespread literacy?

There are examples of faster linguistic shift, but from modern times, with public education, high literacy, media, etc. - like these:

1) One example:

Percent of German-speakers in Alsace:

1900: 95%
1946: 91%
1997: 63%
2001: 61%
2012: 43%

German-speakers by age group in 2012:

age 60+ - 74%
age 45-59 - 54%
age 30-44 - 24%
age 18-29 - 12%
age 3-17 - 3%

We can see here, that younger generations are no longer learning German (at least not as a native/mother tongue).

Source: Le dialecte en chiffres | www.OLCAlsace.org

2) Another example:

Lutheran parish Glowitz (near Stolp) in Pommern:

Year (population) - Slavic-speakers (%), German-speakers (%):

1829 (4848) - 3297 (68%), 1551 (32%)
1850 (5122) - 1370 (27%), 3752 (73%)
1879 (5381) - 125 (2%), 5256 (98%)

From 1829 to 1879 there were ca. 50 years, so no more than two generations (one generation = ca. 25-30 years).

But these are examples from very recent times, not from Medieval or Ancient times (e.g. Latin replacing Gaulish).

In the Middle Ages such processes could not be so fast, unless they were at least partially forced (e.g. bans on using language). Forced, or at least state-promoted (i.e. one language favoured by the ruling elites, another language discriminated by them).
Considering the age-groups the Alsatian language (aka Elsässerditsch, aka l'Alsacien, Alsatian dialect of German) is even worse:

La proportion de dialectophones croît régulièrement avec l’âge. Ainsi, d’après l’étude OLCA/EDinstitut de 2012, sont dialectophones :

74% des 60 ans et plus ; years and more
54% des 45-59 ans/years
24% des 30-44 ans/years
12% des 18-29 ans/years
3% des 3-17 ans (issu du déclaratif parent)
And within the family:

L’étude OLCA/EDinstitut de 2012 détaille les habitudes de pratique avec les membres de la famille. Par ordre décroissant, on parle donc alsacien "toujours ou presque" :
The study OLCA/EDinstitut gives in detail the habit to speak with family members. By decreasing order they speak Alsatian always or almost exclusively:

  1. avec ses grands-parents (91%) ; with their grand-parents (91%)
  2. avec son père (81%) ; with their father (81%)
  3. avec sa mère (79%) ; with their mother (79%)
  4. avec son/sa conjoint(e) (69%) ; with their spouse (69%)
  5. avec ses enfants (39%); with their children (39%)
.
Alsatian will be soon change from mother language to grandmother language:lol:.

BTW: Alsatians might be offended if their language is called "German". They had some unpleasant experiences with their cousins from the other side of the Rhine.
 
Jan 2014
1,989
Regnum Francorum (orientalium) / Germany
#9
As for Ancient times:

For example the extinction of Gaulish language lasted for several centuries after Caesar's conquest of Gaul.

Sources say that in year 200 AD Saint Irenaeus, bishop of Lugdunum, was recorded preaching to the masses in Celtic language there. So at least some of the lowest and poorest classes of the population still spoke Celtic at that time.

According to wikipedia, Gaulish got extinct in the 6th century, but it seems to be based on very dubious sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulish_language#Medieval_period

I've read that last enclaves of Celtic (something like your Sorbs) survived until the 1st half of the 5th century.
Interestingly there was even a Romance-speaking enclave in Germany till the 10th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moselle_Romance

The only reminder of its Romance past today are the place names which are derived from Latin.

There was also a slavic-speaking enclave in Norhern Germany (Lower Saxony - west of the Elbe) till the 18th century: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabische_Sprache
 
Jan 2014
1,989
Regnum Francorum (orientalium) / Germany
#10
Well, the truth/facts, no matter how offensive to some people, is still the truth/facts.

What language is that, Martian? :) It's mutually intelligible with other German dialects.
Well, judging from my own experiences in Alsace those who speak l'Alsacien speak a better German than the "real" Germans on the other side of the Rhine.

The reasons why they speak l'Alsacien and not German is the following:

Si la parenté de l'"alsacien" et de l'"allemand" n'est plus clairement perçue dans la conscience populaire, ce problème s'explique surtout par le "rejet" de l'allemand après 1945, à la suite du traumatisme de l'annexion et de la terreur national-socialiste. Tout en respectant la mémoire vigilante de ce passé, il faut retrouver aujourd'hui une vue plus objective et sereine.
Définition de la langue régionale | www.OLCAlsace.org

Delphine Wespiser (Miss France 2012) defends the Alsatian dialect:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-wx-vVGQo4[/ame]


She speaks the Alsatian dialect which sounds similar to me to the Alemanic dialects. According to https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphine_Wespiser she was born in Mulhouse (Mülhausen) in the southern part of Alsace.
 
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