Hitler and Zionism

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,631
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#1
Labour MP and former London mayor Ken Livingston has got himself into hot water by saying “Let’s remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."

Regardless of the politics, what do you feel about the veracity of this statement?

He later clarified this by saying "Hitler came to an agreement with some Zionists". He may have been referring to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Let us try to discuss this objectively, if we can.
 

Nemowork

Ad Honorem
Jan 2011
8,356
South of the barcodes
#2
It shows up one of the early splits in Jewish groups of the time.

Do you support jews as a people, in which case you have to protect Europes jewish population and oppose Hitler or do you want europe to become intolerable for jews so they are forced out and come to Israel and buiild a Jewish state.

The Irgun decided they had to join with the Britsh and ended up fighting alongside us in Iraq, their commander David Raziel wsa killed there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Raziel

On the other hand the Lehi/Stern gang decided they would be better off aiding the Germans to weaken British strength in Palestine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Stern
In January 1941, Stern attempted to make an agreement with the German Nazi authorities, offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for Jewish immigration to Palestine and the establishment of a Jewish state. Another attempt to contact the Germans was made in late 1941, but there is no record of a German response in either case.[12] These appeals to Germany were in direct opposition to the views of other Zionists, such as Ze'ev Jabotinsky, who wanted Britain to defeat the Nazis even as they wanted to expel the British from Palestine.[13]
Shortly after this Avraham Stern was mysteriously discovered by police where he was mysteriously shot while resisting arrest...you know, mysteriously!
 
Jan 2015
3,276
Front Lines of the Pig War
#3
Labour MP and former London mayor Ken Livingston has got himself into hot water by saying “Let’s remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."
Apparently he wasn't given the memo about the Godwin's corollary.
Internet rules and laws: the top 10, from Godwin to Poe - Telegraph

No matter what the context, a Hitler reference in your argument won't end well.
Regardless of the politics, what do you feel about the veracity of this statement?

He later clarified this by saying "Hitler came to an agreement with some Zionists". He may have been referring to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Let us try to discuss this objectively, if we can.
The idea of Zionists making a deal with Hitler is like having supper with the devil - except they didn't have a long enough food.
 
Mar 2012
18,030
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
#5
Hitler was never supporting Zionism. He merely liked to get rid of the Jews and from the source of the OP:

The Haavara Agreement was thought among some Nazi circles to be a possible way to rid the country of its supposed "Jewish problem."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

The Jews who still remained in European territories that was within the reach of Nazi regime shall naturally be killed for not heeding towards the desire of Hitler for them to get away from Europe and be in Israel.

Hitler from the outset hated the Jews.

On that regard, Ken Livingston was not giving the correct details about Hitler's intentions towards the Jews, and the reason could be pure inability to know the facts of them or an ulterior motive, which I am not in a position to discuss for lack of knowledge of them.
 
Mar 2012
18,030
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
#6
The idea of Zionists making a deal with Hitler is like having supper with the devil - except they didn't have a long enough food.
The Jews were simply not in any position to dictate their will against Hitler.

Just look at the provisions of this Certificate coming from that OP source:


CERTIFICATE
The Trust and Transfer Office "Haavara" Ltd. places at the disposal of the Banks in Palestine amounts in Reichmarks which have been put at its disposal by the Jewish immigrants from Germany. The Banks avail themselves of these amounts in Reichmarks in order to make payments on behalf of Palestinian merchants for goods imported by them from Germany. The merchants pay in the value of the goods to the Banks and the "Haavara" Ltd. pays the countervalue to the Jewish immigrants from Germany. To the same extent that local merchants will make use of this arrangement, the import of German goods will serve to withdraw Jewish capital from Germany.
The Trust and Transfer Office,
HAAVARA, LTD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Germany shall be earning from the Jews while the latter were ordered to leave the European premises.
 
Jan 2015
3,276
Front Lines of the Pig War
#8
On that regard, Ken Livingston was not giving the correct details about Hitler's intentions towards the Jews, and the reason could be pure inability to know the facts of them or an ulterior motive, which I am not in a position to discuss for lack of knowledge of them.
Good Lord, a politician who doesn't quite have a close affiliation with the truth? :lol:

Ken Livingstone is known in the UK as "Red Ken", but to avoid discussing politics, I'll let you extrapolate your own ulterior motives.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,048
#9
There is some philosophical agreement between Nazism and Zionism, both place ethnicity or blood as central to citizenship and rights. Both thought that German Jews could never be 'real' germans.
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,714
Stockport Cheshire UK
#10
Labour MP and former London mayor Ken Livingston has got himself into hot water by saying “Let’s remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."


Regardless of the politics, what do you feel about the veracity of this statement?
He later clarified this by saying "Hitler came to an agreement with some Zionists". He may have been referring to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Let us try to discuss this objectively, if we can.
Well, at least he's not denying the Holocaust :eek:
Hitler policy originally wasn't so much move the Jews to Israel as move them as far away from Germany as possible by whatever means possible. He wasn't supporting Zionism as such, only using them to further the removal of Jews from German territory.
 
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